The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

[Mick]

Could be from a legal prospective, I wouldn't know.

To me, taking a loaded gun and following a complete stranger based upon appearance alone is not exactly intent to spread goodwill. If the intent is good then why the loaded gun? Why stop and follow at all? Why the "they always get away" type comments? I think it's clear that his intent wasn't to offer him ice cream to go with his skittles.

But how do you get that he was following based upon appearance alone? This was the 911 call ZM made.

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about

He says he thinks the guy is on drugs, it's raining and says this guys just walking around looking about. That is not appearance alone.

You seem to imply a lot more, or perhaps read into the fact ZM had a gun much more than is there. Nearly a million people in Florida alone have permits to carry concealed weapons. Are you implying all of these people have intent to instigate and then kill using their gun. Its non sequitur.

Its a person right in the US to right to bare arms, this goes off on a tangent to this discussion, but shows no more than ZM wanted to protect himself with the use of a firearm, which he and over 1000 people in that zip code are also allowed to do.

It doesn't somehow get your own opinion, that he carried it with intent to confront people in the neighborhood he suspected of being burglars with it. It doesn't even fit the facts, if ZM had pulled his gun and gone chasing after TM do you think TM would have punched ZM in the face? Even when ZM claims he carried the gun for defense against a pit bull, you won't believe that for a second, no Zm's a vigilante. All I can say is you must have ESP, because I have no idea what was going though his head or half the events of the evening, but you seem to KNOW everything already, amazing.

[Homey]

Could be from a legal prospective, I wouldn't know.

To me, taking a loaded gun and following a complete stranger based upon appearance alone is not exactly intent to spread goodwill. If the intent is good then why the loaded gun? Why stop and follow at all? Why the "they always get away" type comments? I think it's clear that his intent wasn't to offer him ice cream to go with his skittles.

But how do you get that he was following based upon appearance alone? This was the 911 call ZM made.

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about

He says he thinks the guy is on drugs, it's raining and says this guys just walking around looking about. That is not appearance alone.

You seem to imply a lot more, or perhaps read into the fact ZM had a gun much more than is there. Nearly a million people in Florida alone have permits to carry concealed weapons. Are you implying all of these people have intent to instigate and then kill using their gun. Its non sequitur.

Its a person right in the US to right to bare arms, this goes off on a tangent to this discussion, but shows no more than ZM wanted to protect himself with the use of a firearm, which he and over 1000 people in that zip code are also allowed to do.

It doesn't somehow get your own opinion, that he carried it with intent to confront people in the neighborhood he suspected of being burglars with it. It doesn't even fit the facts, if ZM had pulled his gun and gone chasing after TM do you think TM would have punched ZM in the face? Even when ZM claims he carried the gun for defense against a pit bull, you won't believe that for a second, no Zm's a vigilante. All I can say is you must have ESP, because I have no idea what was going though his head or half the events of the evening, but you seem to KNOW everything already, amazing.

No, it's all just simple logic.

He saw Martin. Martin wasn't committing any crime at all. So what did he based his actions on? Why did he call 911? Why did he follow Martin?

It obviously had nothing to do with a crime, so what other possibilities are there? I'm open to hear/read them if you have some. It was based on appearance since there is no other possible realistic reason. Zimmerman has five senses just like the rest of us. It's fairly obvious that his information and decision making was based upon seeing. He didn't see a crime, but he still perceived this boy to such a huge threat to himself and the community.

I saw a ridiculous clip of Giraldo Rivera, he was going on and on about the hoodie. Blames the whole incident on the boys hoodie. If you don't want your black or latino boys killed then don't let them wear hoodies. Appearance means a lot in this world we live in, people make split second judgement based solely upon appearance. Most of this judgement is unconscious, few people even realize or admit that their brain is doing it. We all do it, automatically within a second of meeting or seeing anyone new.

"This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about" --This guys looks like he's up to no good, sounds like appearance to me. Once again, no crime against walking around in the rain looking about. Heck I do it all the time. If I walk to 7-11 to get some skittles, I will surely be looking around as I walk. Sometimes I even just walk around for exercise or relaxation. I find so much more that I otherwise miss when I zoom by on my scooter.

The other gun owners aren't so obsessed with being a vigilante cop. This guy calls 911 more than he changes his underwear. He must be paranoid of every single non-white person he see's. Oh no, there's a black guy, quick call 911 and get the gun and follow him. People I know that own guns don't follow others around that they perceive to suspicious.

[Mick]

I'll wait and see what happens in the trial before jumping to conclusions.

I think there was a media trial, and the facts as they were presented were distorted to show racial profiling, pictures released of a angelic TM, that he was the one calling for help, that ZM confronted him, attacked and then shot him and so on and so on, no mention of ZM's injuries. Initially I too couldn't understand how charges were not made against ZM.

When a conversation like this takes place.

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black

But the media report it as this.

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

Of course people react angrily, it sounds exactly like ZM had racially profiled TM. The problem with this was that it was edited out the context in which those words were spoken.

[jdsmith]

When a conversation like this takes place.

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black

But the media report it as this.

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

Of course people react angrily, it sounds exactly like ZM had racially profiled TM. The problem with this was that it was edited out the context in which those words were spoken.

If homey don't get that after 57 pages, what makes you think he'll get it on page 58?

[Homey]

I'll wait and see what happens in the trial before jumping to conclusions.

I think there was a media trial, and the facts as they were presented were distorted to show racial profiling, pictures released of a angelic TM, that he was the one calling for help, that ZM confronted him, attacked and then shot him and so on and so on, no mention of ZM's injuries. Initially I too couldn't understand how charges were not made against ZM.

When a conversation like this takes place.

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black

But the media report it as this.

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

Of course people react angrily, it sounds exactly like ZM had racially profiled TM. The problem with this was that it was edited out the context in which those words were spoken.

No, I agree. From my understanding a few people lost their jobs over that edit.

The blatant mishandling of the case by the police and prosecutors is the main racial issue for most people.

Back to Zimmerman, if he had been driving his truck around looking for problems and spotted a white woman, or a white man in a suit and tie looking around, then I would wager that he surely wouldn't have perceived them to be a problem and cause for following and calling 911.

[jdsmith]

You sure say "if" a whole lot.

The blatant mishandling of the case by the police and prosecutors is the main racial issue for most people.

Ignoring the facts and making shit up may be the other one.

[headhonchoII]

I read the Reuters report which gave me a good understanding of the background to the case. The fact is young black males had mainly been involved in burglaries in the area, one time they ran through the zimmermans back garden and entered a neighbors house while she locked herself upstairs. Supposedly he was nominated as the neighborhood watch captain. He had a black business partner a few years before. You can see the logic as to why Zimmerman would want to follow TM around, at least until the police arrived. He obviously should have backed off earlier and let the police handle t. But the area was tense from numerous incidents that had occurred along with poor economy.
This probably what led GZ to get in over his head.
TM also had a bit of a junior rap sheet, although there is no direct evidence at all that he was actually casing the place at the time, GZ made a logical assumption that said this could be leading to another burglary.
It's a whole nexus of factors that intersected tragically.

[jdsmith]

I read the Reuters report which gave me a good understanding of the background to the case. The fact is young black males had mainly been involved in burglaries in the area, one time they ran through the zimmermans back garden and entered a neighbors house while she locked herself upstairs. Supposedly he was nominated as the neighborhood watch captain. He had a black business partner a few years before. You can see the logic as to why Zimmerman would want to follow TM around, at least until the police arrived. He obviously should have backed off earlier and let the police handle t. But the area was tense from numerous incidents that had occurred along with poor economy.
This probably what led GZ to get in over his head.
TM also had a bit of a junior rap sheet, although there is no direct evidence at all that he was actually casing the place at the time, GZ made a logical assumption that said this could be leading to another burglary.
It's a whole nexus of factors that intersected tragically.

Right.

And the thing is that all or most of this info was available from the get go. The way GZ was portrayed in the media, especially on TV fit some stupid racially incendiary profile that garnered hundreds of hours of coverage, and that is total bullshit. And yet despite many of the "racial bias" things now seen as false or misleading, people are still calling for GZ's head, accusing him of racial profiling and murder. This just confirms to me that news is not to be derived fro the TV.

If you're only going to listen to a 3 minute blurb about something important...just don't. Keep playing your crazy birds or doing bonghits and watching Jon Stewart.

[Tigerman]

Back to Zimmerman, if he had been driving his truck around looking for problems...

But, he wasn't. he was on his way to the store when he spotted TM.

...and spotted a white woman, or a white man in a suit and tie looking around, then I would wager that he surely wouldn't have perceived them to be a problem and cause for following and calling 911.

My guess is that had he seen a black man in a suit and tie walking around he would not have called the dispatcher. How many people, black, white, yellow or blue, wear a suit and tie when commiting burglaries?

Likewise, I think that had GZ spotted an unfamiliar young white or hispanic kid wearing a hoodie or some other clothing that hides the wearer, GZ would have called the dispatcher.

Some behavior is only racist if you desperately want it to be. Its like profiling, sort of.

[headhonchoII]

No, it took time for all the information to be collected, all types of people to be talked to and a PROPER unbiased report put together, in this case by Reuters. It was hardly available from the get-go.