Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby fred smith » 23 Jun 2012, 10:26

No it isn't. I note you are still refusing to deal with the science.


Apparently, I am not the only one or would you like to point to urgent action being taken by any major policy-makers?

You would have made a fine Catholic priest. Believe. Kneel. Obey.

Anyway, keep talking all you want about the science. It reminds me of so many of the other conversations in which rich speculation continues to amuse the participants but has not a hope in hell of being implemented.

SCIENCE!!!!

but no action...

Moot point? Irrelvant? Pointless? Nonactionable? How would you like to phrase the deflationary actions (haha) that are taking place with regard to the climate change alarmist movement? Up to you? I will look forward to receiving the new approved language that must be used by all right-thinking people. Be sure and remind us about the dying polar bears... so sad... and perhaps something about a rare and soon to be endangered or maybe even EXTINCT newt, salamander or tree slug. All riveting. All so important. All so ... er... here's where I need your help... what is the word for this?
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby Fortigurn » 23 Jun 2012, 10:47

fred smith wrote:
No it isn't. I note you are still refusing to deal with the science.


Apparently, I am not the only one...


So what? That doesn't make you right to ignore the science. What followed was yet another of your hysterical rants, which become increasingly incoherent the more you are confronted by the scientific evidence.
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby fred smith » 23 Jun 2012, 11:56

So what? That doesn't make you right to ignore the science.


The science that suggests that sealevels are rising?

The science that suggests that Antarctica is melting?

The science that suggests that the Arctic will be icefree in a decade or so?

The science that suggests that polar bears are dying?

The science that suggests that crop failures will sweep Africa?

The science that suggests that the Amazon rainforest will disappear?

The science that suggests that the Himalayan glaciers will melt by 2030?

The science that suggests that the hockey stick, which ignored Medieval warm temperatures, is real?

What followed was yet another of your hysterical rants, which become increasingly incoherent the more you are confronted by the scientific evidence.


Hysterical? :)

Scientific evidence? Such as the above? Which at one time was all "scientific evidence," but is now "explained?" And why is it that your alarmists feel the need to hide emails and I don't?

Finally, hysterical? is that how you describe Obama? the leaders of Japan? Canada? Russia? Brazil? South Africa? India? China? Now, explain again with all this "scientific evidence" why the national leaders of so many countries are doing nothing? I mean if the science is settled and imminent disaster looms, well, then, why are these leaders so, er, complacent?
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby urodacus » 23 Jun 2012, 13:08

because they're voted in by people like you.
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby fred smith » 24 Jun 2012, 10:47

because they're voted in by people like you.


Actually, I am a staunch Republican though I do like Hillary Clinton and would vote for her in a second. As to Obama, I have much to like about him and his policies as well. But I question where you can write off so many billions of votes or voter decisions or representatives of those who are not allowed to vote in such a way. Again, if the science were settled as some suggest that it is and if it were the problem that many claim it is... well, then... awfully short-sighted of so many. OR it appears that many are finally starting to subscribe to the views of Bjorn Lomberg... it is a problem but not the world's most serious one and technology and economic development are better solutions as they enable countries to deal with these problems more effectively because they are richer and more developed.
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby BigJohn » 24 Jun 2012, 10:56

Fred: I think the point needs to be made that you actually make it much harder for people to accept your facts and arguments because you often express them in an offensive way.
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby Steviebike » 24 Jun 2012, 11:10

I kinda enjoy the Freddy Boy posts. I've learnt they're harmless, to pursue Freddy for some gain is pointless and once you get caught on his hook...

I understand the fact that the developed countries don't really have a right to tell the developing countries that they have to cut emissions and therefor curb their economic growth. But just because I understand it, doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. For one it is short-sighted. Pollution isn't border/boundary specific so in effect it is all of us who should be dealing with it, developing or not. Developing also doesn't have to follow the same boring path, if only other countries could reject the western model of growth and demand. Develop something new, be brave new pioneers. A big ask.

As for the alarmists... I really am not sue who they are? Being concerned about the environment is a good thing. No? If predictions are wrong (in the positive sense) then great. No harm is being done. What about the cost? A small fraction of national budgets really. Compared to defence budgets the cost is laughable. Would rather throw some money at a potential problem than none at all and sink. Plenty of money is wasted on the defence budget, from too many boots to malfunctioning vehicles...
Just checking but you're a South African Engrish Teachur right? No. I'm a Russian nuclear physicist.
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby fred smith » 24 Jun 2012, 11:37

I understand the fact that the developed countries don't really have a right to tell the developing countries that they have to cut emissions and therefor curb their economic growth.


Labor and environment are two key issues that many developed countries use to engage in competitive, zero-sum behavior based on outdated 18th century mercantilism.

But just because I understand it, doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.


Well, then you seem not to understand it.

For one it is short-sighted. Pollution isn't border/boundary specific so in effect it is all of us who should be dealing with it, developing or not. Developing also doesn't have to follow the same boring path, if only other countries could reject the western model of growth and demand. Develop something new, be brave new pioneers. A big ask.


The pollution is already there. The development is not always there. Why is London far cleaner now than at any time in say 500 years? Which is dirtier, an Indian village with dung-fired stoves, latrine-flooded water sources or Mumbai despite its factories, traffic and millions?

As for the alarmists... I really am not sue who they are? Being concerned about the environment is a good thing. No? If predictions are wrong (in the positive sense) then great. No harm is being done. What about the cost? A small fraction of national budgets really. Compared to defence budgets the cost is laughable. Would rather throw some money at a potential problem than none at all and sink. Plenty of money is wasted on the defence budget, from too many boots to malfunctioning vehicles...


Back to that so desperately needed understanding that, again, you seem not to have achieved. Complying with environmental regulations costs billions if not trillions every year. This is a major brake on economic growth. What does it deliver? Some of the legislation and regulations are obviously good and were implemented for very good reasons but...

Look at what the EPA regulated in the 1970s and look at what it regulates today. The costs are ever greater for deliverables that are ever smaller. Minute fractions of percentages for air and water cleanliness. Hell, the water in most American cities is far cleaner than in some pristine natural lake where fish and birds shit. But nature is the goddess that all must kneel before. Everything must remain "pure."

IF alarmists really cared about the environment and global warming, they would realize the best way to fight it is to increase development to make the world wealthier. We have seen this over and over and over again. What we have also seen over and over and over again is economic redistibution schemes that take from the productive and give to the undeserving because of issues of fairness that lead to no discernible benefit whatsoever other than to assuage the sensibilities of leftist claptrap theorists and their sense of honor, integrity or JUSTICE.

How taking a couple of billion or even a couple of hundred billion dollars from a Western developed country to set up projects or fund NGOs or give money to the national governments of African or Pacific Island or Caribbean nations makes sense or even leads to any discernible benefit for the environment escapes me. Here, I clearly lack understanding so if someone can explain to me how these redistributionist schemes which so clearly are modeled on Communist, socialist, Third Worldist paradigms is of any benefit whatsoever I would be most appreciative.

It is like the UN budget. Take any objective, factor in all the money that is devoted to a UN bureaucracy and look for a measurable outcome that is not consumed by bullshit phrases about raising awareness or establishing a presence on the ground or empowering x y or z group to achieve a b or c outcomes and then scratch your head and wonder... why waste this money at all, just to feel good? to give worthless Third World and women's, gender, Latino American, African American studies majors jobs? Deconstructionism needs to be implemented but let's start with the specious precious cant-ridden premises of those who have never worked in a profit-driven organization a day in their life... I am not counting their summer jobs at McDonald's or cashiering at some gas station... they would not know how to achieve anything of value if they tried... and obviously they have never done so... do their theses on their subjective sensibilities regarding Shakespeare and his views on women? minorities? colonialism? capitalism? anomie? religion? oppression? power domination? really matter if Shakespeare, himself, never intended any of the motives or definitions or descriptions that they mistakenly subscribe to him just because they FEEL that such is the case?

Likewise, do their irrelevant, wrong-headed, distorted perceptions of corporations and capitalism really matter? should they be allowed to create the regulatory regimen that governs the actions of the most productive? should they be allowed to set the policies that govern distribution of resources, economic, education or otherwise?

And this is they KEY problem with the whole Rio fiasco. Everyone wants their free trips to the beach but they have to pretend to engage in agoniste writhings about their carbon footprints while deluding themselves that their presence "matters" enough to make the CO2 emissions created "worth it." If only these people would subject themselves to the same regulatory regimens that they are demanding of business... What's fair is fair after all and we should all be granted justice...









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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby Steviebike » 24 Jun 2012, 12:25

What's fair is fair after all and we should all be granted justice...


Indeed.

Understanding. Well Our starting points are different, but at times I agree with you, even if the feeling is not mutual. The current state and system is dysfunctional in regards to funding and organisation of NGO's and GO's. As a comparable I know another industry who organises holidays conferences for it's 'delegates' to get their 'approval' on things that affect the health of possibly millions of people. It stinks.

Distribution to the needy because they are needy, was not something I was ever talking about. Those that have an answer and are prepared to WORK to gain the answer to the problems [read into that however you like] we face, should be given a chance and yes the funding should be performance based, not feel-good based. It is a sad fact that often these organisations are corrupt or at the least; lazy and inefficient. I have to say I'm being idealistic and utopian, but someone has to be!

The pollution is already there. The development is not always there. Why is London far cleaner now than at any time in say 500 years? Which is dirtier, an Indian village with dung-fired stoves, latrine-flooded water sources or Mumbai despite its factories, traffic and millions?


Is London cleaner? You tell me. I thought England recently got damned for airborne pollution. Mumbai clean? It is if you have the money, but would you give the money to clean your neighbourhood? Even though those people have done nothing to deserve clean water? Many seem to think not and although they have extreme wealth, they see no reason to be altruistic or philanthropic. Even though philanthropy considerably helped masses of English escape grinding poverty during the industrial era. Instead we give to charities that often suck the money up 'promoting' themselves rather than distributing the 'collective' money. So we both agree, in fact I think nearly everyone agrees, but you still drag us to this point. Got any ideas how this could be stopped or improved? I hear you pessimism, but never hear your solutions. I would love to hear your answer to the problems of development and environment.

I bit, I bit, I bit! :lol:
Just checking but you're a South African Engrish Teachur right? No. I'm a Russian nuclear physicist.
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Re: Climate Change VI - Warmists and their Demise

Postby fred smith » 24 Jun 2012, 12:36

[quote]I would love to hear your answer to the problems of development and environment.[/quote]


Get the UN, aid organizations and charitable groups out of development entirely. Their "capacity building" and "empowerment" and "information share" and "awareness building" are essentially bullshit and fund only the consultants capitalistic urges to improve their bottomlines.

Companies will be the best source of development that is the most efficient. If there are energy efficiency issues then who do you trust to resolve them? The bureaucrat? the well-meaning NGO with their promotion of biofuels (don't get me started) or the corporate executive who is seeking to maximize his profit while reducing waste?

Countries that free their economies develop and then guess what? spend money on cleaning up their cities. Look at China today. Yes, there was a period of high air and water pollution rates and these are to some extent unavoidable but the development it brought were considered by the people who live there worth the hazard. Are there problems? hell yes but who is better capable of dealing with it? middle income China and its fast-developing economy or Lagos Nigeria with its corrupt, bureaucracy-bound, aid-and-assistance-aided development model?
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