Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby Mick » 26 Apr 2012, 17:19

I agree with both those posts, and fear it's even worse than that. If you look at America's , Europe's and Japan's economy, they are all heavily in debt. Austerity measures are the order of the day, longer work till retirement, lower benefits, higher unemployment. In my mind TPTB have been sucking up to business interests for far too long, passing laws that in effect takes peoples money and pass it on to corporations.

There are many examples, Pharmaceuticals and the patent system, or one I was thinking about the other day, how is it in today's day and age, with every credit card purchase we hand over 2% of the total sum of the purchase, which might be a lot if you buy a car. Its completely possible to create a safe way to interact with banks, and portable devices that should eliminate this 2% purchasing tax that gets given straight to the credit card companies, completely automated with no expense to the bank. Legalize drugs, or at least marijuana and stop spending tons trying to police a failed prohibition, policing costs, lawyer costs, court costs and prison costs, and for what, to stop someone smoking some pot?

You might say what does any of this have to do with climate change, but any serious attempt to curb emissions will cost the global economy hugely, and the countries that are supposed to be leading the way are completely broke. People are already up in arms at the increases of energy prices, a fuel tax, or removal of tax breaks for the oil companies and energy companies will have a very negative effect. I'm really for addressing the issue of climate change, but at this moment, fixing their broken economies should take priority.
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby divea » 26 Apr 2012, 17:57

:roflmao: This takes talk shop to a new level. everyone's still discussing Kyoto :roll: Cancun and maybe Durban whilst delegates are meeting twice a month and frantically ironing out issues (in NY at the moment) for Rio in June. But all our resident experts, have not even mentioned Rio or are even concerned about the agendas then. I guess once Rio is over, THEN everyone will have reams to say about how bad India and China are, because for that you don't have to know ANYTHING.

For folks who are interested in the subject, thisis a good read.

The UK Government appears not to understand this. They have recently published an embarrassingly pathetic vision document about sustainable development, which they are pretending will in some way make up for their vandalism in ending the Sustainable Development Commission and the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution.
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby finley » 26 Apr 2012, 18:27

Divea, I don't understand your point. Nobody here is really mentioning Rio, or the other climate-change conferences, because all they are is an excuse for politicians to enjoy some nice canapes, and maybe a bit of sunbathing. The blog you mention has this to say:

This is at a time when rising commodity prices – for oil, food, metals, etc – threaten all the Government's economic policy targets. They see these as outside factors over which they have no control, and no blame.

Well, here's some news: they don't have any control over them, and in the next sentence the blogger helpfully explains why:
The clash between rising demand and limited supply in a finite world is the perfect recipe for these commodity price rises to continue.

This is the basic problem. Fix the economic issues - the extremely poor economic efficiency of our current way of doing things - and the emissions will take care of themselves. Mick said something similar back there.

I guess once Rio is over, THEN everyone will have reams to say about how bad India and China are, because for that you don't have to know ANYTHING.

So ... what are you saying? That India and China are not disasters waiting to happen? It is nobody's fault but their own if they have made conscious policy decisions to install outdated, wasteful, expensive systems instead of cheaper, better, sustainable ones. Indian researchers, especially, have come up with some immensely clever system designs lately for (e.g.) irrigation and farmland repair. But nobody's using it because the Indian government is still paying farmers to do things the wrong way. We live on one planet and we each have stewardship for our own bit of it. Rather than finger-pointing and complaining about how unfair everything is, it would be nice if people could agree on a mutually-beneficial plan of action, and then get on with it. That means the little people, not gov't penpushers: because it is they who actually have the choice whether to spray their food with banned pesticides, or to buy a Tata Nano (which they will only be able to drive at 3mph because Indian cities have no functioning roads), or to build their houses out of energy-sucking concrete instead of using modern technology.
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby urodacus » 26 Apr 2012, 21:17

Divea, in the past people did what they did because they did not know that it was bad. Now that we do know, should we allow anyone to continue doing the bad shit? No, we should not.

We used to keep slaves (well, not me specifically, I'm too young, and probably not you either). But plenty of people in India and in China and in Europe and in America etc. did in the past, before we woke up and stamped it out. Are you suggesting now that those who did not keep slaves in the past but want cheap labour now, should have the right to keep slaves? That is a morally equivalent argument, and it's wrong.

No, India, China, and Brazil, and all the other little developing countries we often forget about should absolutely not have the right to pollute the world even further than it is. How the hell can you ask for that, given what we all know and see is the problem, and given that the technology exists to do it differently.

What an opportunity to develop something better, rather than have to swim in increasing amounts of crap in the atmosphere and wherever. We can't afford to miss it.

You're the one with children, not me. You should be worried for the future of your descendants, in a way that I don't need to be but still am. How ironic!
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This post was recommended by finley (26 Apr 2012, 21:38)
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby Fox » 26 Apr 2012, 21:25

I was reading something today that said since the onset of the Holocene (i.e. the last 12000 years) the average rise in the Earth's temperature has been 0.067 degrees per 100 years but in the last 100 years it has gone up 0.6 degrees. That is the data from the ice cores. It gives a spread of 8 degrees Celsius b/w the last ice age and where we are at today and shows an increase of 9 times the average increase in the last 100 years. That is obviously a very rapid increase in temperature. There may have been other periods in the last 12000 years that also increased rapidly. It didn't mention those.
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby divea » 26 Apr 2012, 22:33

urodacus wrote:Divea, in the past people did what they did because they did not know that it was bad. Now that we do know, should we allow anyone to continue doing the bad shit? No, we should not.

We used to keep slaves (well, not me specifically, I'm too young, and probably not you either). But plenty of people in India and in China and in Europe and in America etc. did in the past, before we woke up and stamped it out. Are you suggesting now that those who did not keep slaves in the past but want cheap labour now, should have the right to keep slaves? That is a morally equivalent argument, and it's wrong.

No, India, China, and Brazil, and all the other little developing countries we often forget about should absolutely not have the right to pollute the world even further than it is. How the hell can you ask for that, given what we all know and see is the problem, and given that the technology exists to do it differently.

What an opportunity to develop something better, rather than have to swim in increasing amounts of crap in the atmosphere and wherever. We can't afford to miss it.

You're the one with children, not me. You should be worried for the future of your descendants, in a way that I don't need to be but still am. How ironic!

I agree o great mind!! More than you would know, (No need to invoke kids. I always find that way below the belt just like you would if I told you what the hell do you know about kids since you don't have any. So lets not go there. :hand: ) but at the same time stop all machines in Europe and America. Just stop all the packaged food. Stop all the continuing pollution. Let the west just stop all pollution, let them give BRICS a little bit of margin??? No? Equal opportunity to developing nations and all that.

Urodacus you and I both know, climate change not unlike disarmament is crap talk. They don't want India and Pak to have Nuclear capability but will not let go of theirs. Simple. mine may not be the popular sentiment among white foreigners, but it doesn't mean I am wrong.

Why did Canada opt out?? Where was its conscience to pollute less??? Saying India and China are polluting so we can make merry is HA!!! Clean up at home first honey, and then be a role model. Don't friggin overshoot your targets and then cry about India's projected ones. The US had its chance to development right?? They were the largest polluters until two years ago??? Not one American thought of its children???? BS BS.

If you are as smart enough as I think you are, and I am sure you have the resources to know that, then you'll also know that Climate Change however real is politicised and is DEFINITELY geared to stop industrialization in the developing world. When shove comes to push no one is going to do anything, but it makes more sense, good media to say 'ah those Asian polluter' just like Ah those bloody Iraqis had nuclear weapons, but Korea has them too, we don't need to send our troops there. If there is Hypocrisy, it is well among the monied nations, the rich ones, whether you talk about selling AIDS meds in Africa at higher prices or Climate change.

Seriously :thumbsdown: as expats I thought you guys had better knowledge of these regions and an objective view on policies.
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby finley » 26 Apr 2012, 22:54

Seriously as expats I thought you guys had better knowledge of these regions and an objective view on policies.

It seems to me, Divea, that you're the one regurgitating received wisdom, courtesy of tub-thumping politicians. This, for example:
[western policy] is DEFINITELY geared to stop industrialization in the developing world

And why would you want to industrialize? Look at the mess it's got us into - and we have no way out. It is not an issue of will or conscience. We continue to pollute because we are utterly dependent, even for the basics of life, on our machines. We are hamsters in a wheel, trapped by the system we built around ourselves. Our entire economy is controlled by huge companies that provide our energy and food, because we allowed them to.

No, I'm not asking for your sympathy. We made our bed, and now we lie in it; and besides, you believe we are rich, because our admen have told you so, and therefore it's true. The point is that you - India, for example - still have a choice. YOU are the ones who need to be setting the example. It is you will see the greatest benefits for the least investment. You do not need to make the mistakes we did. You can do it differently. Or, if you want, you can "industrialize", and drop your country into a big, smoking hole in the ground. Your choice.

You are poor because you believe you are poor. America is rich because it believes it is rich. Such is the power of fiat currency. India, and other developing countries, have the biggest opportunity in the history of the planet: they can take the lead, and profit massively by doing so. But they don't want to, because they're still waiting for their colonial masters to give them alms. Unfortunately, your masters don't have anything to give except knowledge and the benefit of hindsight; and the developing world is still giving away their riches - the contents of their forests and rivers - to anyone who comes asking, because their masters have told them that's how a country can "develop". Get up off your knees, and take your proper place.
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby divea » 26 Apr 2012, 23:39

Listen, I am just responding to all the above 'we are superior and look how China and India are KNOWINGLY polluting (whilst we are doing it too but you know we can because we have been at it for 200 years). IMO What India should do vis a vis pollution is continue its growth, REALLY lessen pollution as much as it can and give a Rats' arse to what the west is carping about climate change. They brought it on the world table, let 'em deal with it. But the UN doesn't function that way so we have to get onto detailed negotiations and in the finer print what does get worked in is other issues like the patenting of natural products like turmeric and MANY other trade issues, whilst pollution keeps hogging the headlines is all I am saying, and yes Asians are horrible works at a lot many levels. Climate change is a big arm twister, and a bartering platform and it only works if the world opinion is against developed countries.

About regurgitated wisdom, :lol: .
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby urodacus » 27 Apr 2012, 07:16

well, I'm just glad I've not got any kids then if that is the attitude that wins out in the end.

develop at all costs, bugger the future.
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Re: Hypocrisy Regarding Climate Change

Postby finley » 27 Apr 2012, 09:48

I find this sort of thing unutterably depressing. It seems to be a common theme in developing countries. "Hey, you westerners poisoned your air and your soil, made yourselves dependent on hostile foreign powers for food and warmth, and left yourselves drowning in debt! We want some of that too, and ain't nobody going to stop us! What do we want? Poverty and breathing problems! When do we want it? Now!"

One half of my family is Sri Lankan. A while ago I read an MSc research paper (a UK university - I forget which) written by an architecture student who had gone to Sri Lanka to promote sustainable building design. He found the biggest obstacle was that people were obsessed with concrete, even though nobody had the necessary skills or knowledge to use it correctly, and it was next-to-impossible to get quality materials. The reason was, poor people had some twilight-zone conception that rich westerners lived in concrete houses, and therefore if they built their houses out of concrete, however shoddily, they would be one step further towards the lifestyle of a rich person. I can completely get this: my dad is an insufferable snob who thinks appearances are everything. He's the sort of person who will buy a made-in-China designer fake rather than a good quality no-name. The tragedy of that particular situation is that the student was working with a Sri Lankan team (they were the ones who advised him about the cultural barriers) to develop something that would actually work in that locale. Their designs would have been cheaper to build, cheaper to run, more attractive, more comfortable, and longer-lasting. But nobody wanted them because they were made of rammed earth and wood. Monkeys live in the woods, and poor people live in earth buildings. Rich people live in crumbling, stained, concrete shitholes.

I get Divea's point about developing countries doing their own thing; but the irony is, they're not doing anything of the sort. They're copying (from The West) some ghastly hall-of-mirrors version of what they imagine development is. When those arrogant Westerners remind them that they (the West) have already been there, done that, and maybe there are better ways of doing things, they say "and WTF do you know about it, eh?".
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