presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Moderators: Mick, TheGingerMan

Forum rules
IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby SuperSneakyCow » 21 Jul 2012, 18:01

Muzha Man wrote:I am not left wing and neither are most of the people you repeatedly label as such. I was quite interested in conservative ideas in the 90s but have seen that most of them don't work, or create unappealing consequences. I was and am appalled by the anti-science bias in American conservatism. So I am liberal by trial and error.

...

There are plenty of conservatives who see what a reactionary obstructionary near fanatical party the Republicans have become. I can debate with such people. But if you think global warming is a hoax, universal health care is incompatable with conservatism, lower taxes always leads to growth and is the solution to America's current problem, union's are scum, government is always the problem, and liberals by definition are incapable of honest debate then I have no time for you.


^This squared?

I used to consider myself somewhat conservative, until I realized that all of their values seem to be applicable in a country that either has only one culture, or is ethnically homogenous, which this country, by it's very nature, is not. Give me a conservative politician, and I can explain to you how they are liars. Give me a conservative blog, or website, and I can deconstruct articles and explain to you how they're misleading lies.

There's nothing inherently wrong with conservatism, but the huge problem in the US is that the right wing has been in support of a government that's funded by incredibly wealthy, private interests, and is essentially run on advertisement-like deception and misrepresentation of reality. When young women look at an ad in a magazine, they see models that look to be in shape that's nearly unattainable, which is an attempt to get the girls to lower their own value and place all their hope and faith in their ability to become something inherently impossible. The Republicans are the same way. They systematically strip away every possibility one may have at becoming wealthy in the future, by convincing people that social safety nets and systemic assurance of social mobility are not necessary.Then they claim that if you cut the taxes for the exact same institutions that have a financial incentive to keep you from becoming wealthy, and thus competing with them, you will become wealthy in the future.

Saying that Republicans are simply Corporatist liars, is being far too kind to them.
SuperSneakyCow
Grasshopper (cǎo měng)
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 08 May 2012, 13:47
17 Recommends(s)
2 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby fred smith » 22 Jul 2012, 11:10

The only thing that's dried up Fred is my interest in debating you, and pretty much the entire Fcom right. This should not be confused with a lack of interest in my own positions, though it doesn't surprise me that understanding this is is a challenge for you.


Challenge? Why is it that you responded to the above? Did I refer to you by name? Lack of interest in your own positions? No... that is not what this is... we have always had a lack of interest in your positions but doubly so since we have noticed that um... well... um... objective standards do not seem to come into play. The confusion would appear to be based on your misunderstanding that there was any interest among us in debating you at all.
Forumosan avatar
fred smith
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 17009
Joined: 11 Oct 2002, 17:14
1 Recommends(s)
56 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby fred smith » 22 Jul 2012, 11:26

I am not left wing


Yes, you are.

and neither are most of the people you repeatedly label as such.


Yes, they are.

You only think that you are centrist. See China's perception of itself as the Middle Kingdom for more on this egocentric stance.

I was quite interested in conservative ideas in the 90s but have seen that most of them don't work, or create unappealing consequences.


Hmmm welfare reform? not a success? the fiscal success of reining in the deficit under Clinton Gingrich? The fact that Clinton, himself, argued that the era of Big Government is over? Compared with states like California where it isn't and which is now bankrupt?

I was and am appalled by the anti-science bias in American conservatism. So I am liberal by trial and error.


Interesting new delusion.

I have little interest in debate with Fcom's republicans because I watched them all sell out their principles during the bush years


Which principles do you think we set aside?

and then try to do a 180 once O got in power. There is no debate with partisans who care only for their party to be in power and not their values realized.


No. That is what you have done with your wonderful silence on the ongoing extrajudicial killings when you were incensed to spend hours and hours of your time attack Bush for waterboarding three individuals, admittedly repeatedly.

Have not conservatives explained here with some agreeing and others not why they can stomach the two Supreme Court justices appointed by Obama?

Can one attack Obama for engaging and continuing W. Bush's policies to a very large degree in many different sectors? Those who had a problem with Bush for his spending and Big Government programs are not the ones who are attacking Obama for big spending. They want all politicians and leaders to stop the big spending. And really given that Obama is to a large degree supporting and continuing Bush policies, why would the conservatives be inconsistent to continue to support those positions? Is it not the case that those who support positions regardless of the politician or party that advocates them is in fact the one who is acting with true consistency? While those who hated people with irrational passion and took up a cause to cudgel that politician and his party but put the cudgel away to shrink away like a crying little girl who had lost her dollie are the ones who are not really very consistent and thus would have their principles (cough cough) questioned?

There are plenty of conservatives who see what a reactionary obstructionary near fanatical party the Republicans have become. I can debate with such people.


As long as they agree with you. No difference there between the far left or the far right. You are two sides of the same coin.

But if you think global warming is a hoax,


I do to the extent that I think that its politicization is far more about making money and taking control or engaging in fruitless ultimately meaningless but very expensive onanistic actions, then yes.

universal health care is incompatable with conservatism,


I and others have written extensively about how the individual mandate is and was a Heritage Foundation and thus conservative idea and how I personally do not understand the ins and outs of health care policy and thus have questioned how others could be so sure in their denunciations of the other side's position BUT I do tend to remain suspicious of government involvement in any sector. It leads to bureaucratic atrophying and unresponsive process-driven conditions that lead to ever increasing sums of money being spent on ever decreasing or no returns... remind me again why I have a problem with turning over vast sectors of control on the environment to such groups?

lower taxes always leads to growth


not always but we do have a number of comparisons between highly taxed countries and states and lower taxes in others and how it affects growth. It is not always the key and only ingredient in the mix but it is often a very important one and one that you seem to be dismissing as irrelevant.

union's are scum,


Would you like to engage in a debate here where you defend the stance taken by public sector unions with regard to pensions and retirement and health care in contrast to the "working man?" If there are any 1 percenters, they are those with guaranteed jobs and pensions. Unfortunately the costs of the same have bankrupted governments from California to Greece. Do you really not see that? is that really a fanatically right position that has no merit?

government is always the problem,


Explain how government involved in public sector education and in public housing and in running the post office or any other business or ... has been a success. I am open to any and all examples that you can provide.

and liberals by definition are incapable of honest debate then I have no time for you.


What you do not have time for is those who challenge your precious postures. You don't want honest debate. You want everyone to applaud you and agree with you for your "brave" stances on issues of marginal relevance. It is easy to sanctimoniously pontificate but then when larger problems occur within the very sector where one has chosen to make one's mark as a "person of principle" (see I can speak liberalese, too) then you go deadly silent but we are supposed to take your word for it that you have just suddenly tired of the useless debates? The very ones you engaged in most passionately for years only to suddenly stop with the arbitrary date of a presidential election and its results?

This post was recommended by Tigerman (22 Jul 2012, 21:04)
Rating: 4%
Forumosan avatar
fred smith
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 17009
Joined: 11 Oct 2002, 17:14
1 Recommends(s)
56 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby fred smith » 22 Jul 2012, 11:42

I used to consider myself somewhat conservative,


I dreamed that I was a man dreaming he was a butterfly and then woke up but didn't know whehter I was a man that had dreamed that he was dreaming that he was a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming that he was a man who had woken from a dream where he thought that he was a butterfly... I am sure all very interesting to you but...

until I realized that all of their values seem to be applicable in a country that either has only one culture, or is ethnically homogenous, which this country, by it's very nature, is not.


Why would being a conservative in a mutliethnic oh sorry "a society characterized by great diversity" oh no rather why would being a conservative in a society "blessed with and reveling in" its "multihued, fascinating melange of cultures and peoples" be value, er, contra-indicated?

Give me a conservative politician, and I can explain to you how they are liars.


Why leave the "conservative" in the front?

Give me a conservative blog, or website, and I can deconstruct articles and explain to you how they're misleading lies.


Ah... I see... the product of one of the many useful (cough cough) gender, diversity, XXX ethnic group studies... Yes, deconstructionism... Yes... Derrida... yes... Foucault... yes... I see... um hmmmmm so let me um deconstruct your statement.... and where is the objective standard that would prevent me from thus translating your comments above to what follows. Let's examine...

I used to consider myself somewhat conservative, until I realized that all of their values seem to be applicable in a country that either has only one culture, or is ethnically homogenous, which this country, by it's very nature, is not. Give me a conservative politician, and I can explain to you how they are liars. Give me a conservative blog, or website, and I can deconstruct articles and explain to you how they're misleading lies.


I have no idea about what conservativism or liberalism means but I went to this college (I really wanted to get into a better one) where I soon realized that math, physics, you know, the hard sciences were way too difficult and like politics and history had these objective standards that needed to be met and I was like failing three of my classes... and so I though that I would major in Bobbydoink Studies where I learned that MY interpretation of reality is the only one that counts. If a teacher looked at me funny or expressed contempt for my facile writings, I could threaten him or her with "disempowering" me by taking away my voice... I was being denied my narrative and this is OPPRESSION. Well, we soon found out that there was nary a voting conservative among us and that the Republicans scoffed at our intellectual prancings so who else to turn to but the liberals who truly understand our need to be different, to express ourselves through endlessly beautiful multifaceted melanges of myriad meanderings. It is all about the road dude. So, like, if someone here, like, um, wants to tell me that I have to get a job or like my performance can um like be rated and evaluated and maybe found to be unsatisfactory or poor, um, like, who do they think that they are telling me this. Like are they the universe... Dude, what the fuck... How can they like think that they like um have like the whole universe figured out. And fuck man... I need a raise... A living wage entitles me to $15 an hour for being a cashier and like um I need like holidays and sick leave and like what's up with them hiring all these Mexicans and Vietnamese who will like take the job and go to school at night while I am partying with my friends for 10 years after I finally got out of college, though it took me six or seven years to do so... cuz like it is totally fucked up and like global warming is killing panda or is it polar bears... and I need to feel personally validated... I need a job that enables me to attend international conferences so that others can hear my voice and we can engage in collaborative dialogue about like solving the world's problems and it it totally fucked up dude that corporations and shit like that won't cough up for the important programs which like fund our salaries and travel to make a difference. What's up with that?
Forumosan avatar
fred smith
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 17009
Joined: 11 Oct 2002, 17:14
1 Recommends(s)
56 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby SuperSneakyCow » 22 Jul 2012, 11:59

fred smith wrote:
I was and am appalled by the anti-science bias in American conservatism. So I am liberal by trial and error.

Interesting new delusion.


Really? That's the thing you call delusional?

Which planet are you from?

fred smith wrote:What's up with that?


Yeah, so I only read a quarter of your post. It wasn't as clever as you thought it was, trying to portray me as some hyper liberal who couldn't study anything practical, and was relegated to "humanities." You had nothing really to say about something that's blatantly obvious, which is republicans corrupting politics for decades, so you lunged over it as far as you could, and bashed the "ridicule" button.

Still you've nothing much to say about it. You deny something as obvious as Republicans and conservatives attempting to destroy science, yet you wonder why people who are even slightly liberal don't want to have a discussion with you.

What's up with that?

P.S. your post-highschool level grasp of philosophy, or ability to hold a book and flip through the pages doesn't make you an intellectual, especially if you can't grasp basic logic, and near tangible facts.
SuperSneakyCow
Grasshopper (cǎo měng)
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 08 May 2012, 13:47
17 Recommends(s)
2 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby BigJohn » 22 Jul 2012, 16:11

fred smith wrote:Explain how government involved in public sector education and in public housing and in running the post office or any other business or ... has been a success. I am open to any and all examples that you can provide.


Fred, can you give us an example of a country with an exclusively or mainly private health care system that manages to to take care of the population's needs well? There are plenty of examples of pretty public ones, including of course Taiwan.

It's not a case of what is best in black and white terms: government or private. I think it depends on what is being provided. Are they basic services that MUST be given, if at all possible (health care) but where there is no economic incentive to deal with every potential consumer (including poorer citizens)? Then government needs to be involved. If not, then yes, private enterprise is usually quite a bit more efficient.

There can also be partnerships, such as for infrastructure projects, mail delivery etc.
Forumosan avatar
BigJohn
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
 
Posts: 4790
Joined: 25 Jun 2005, 01:45
Location: Lost in time, lost in space...and meaning
1 Recommends(s)
120 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby fred smith » 23 Jul 2012, 02:27

P.S. your post-highschool level grasp of philosophy,


post high school? POST high school? really? that is your attempt at an answer?

or ability to hold a book and flip through the pages doesn't make you an intellectual, especially if you can't grasp basic logic, and near tangible facts.


I guess that you had better keep deconstructing Republican motives then... pity that we already, in your view, control everything... except when we don't like in losing an election and possibly losing another election... so how should one deconstruct that? I wait eagerly for your post... whatever post...
Forumosan avatar
fred smith
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 17009
Joined: 11 Oct 2002, 17:14
1 Recommends(s)
56 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby fred smith » 23 Jul 2012, 02:28

There are plenty of examples of pretty public ones, including of course Taiwan.


I will assume then that you have kept up on the lively debate regarding the fiscal sustainability of said insurance program? Yes? Got any others?
Forumosan avatar
fred smith
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 17009
Joined: 11 Oct 2002, 17:14
1 Recommends(s)
56 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby BigJohn » 23 Jul 2012, 10:02

fred smith wrote:
There are plenty of examples of pretty public ones, including of course Taiwan.


I will assume then that you have kept up on the lively debate regarding the fiscal sustainability of said insurance program? Yes? Got any others?


Of course there are problems. Give me an example of government branches where there aren't problems. And the greying of the population sure doesn't help. Doubtless premiums will have to rise, and there is of course a parallel private system in Taiwan. But overall it works here as a mainly public system, as it does in Canada and other countries.

So please Fred:can you give us any examples of a mainly private system which actually doesn't leave millions in the lurch as the US model does?
Forumosan avatar
BigJohn
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
 
Posts: 4790
Joined: 25 Jun 2005, 01:45
Location: Lost in time, lost in space...and meaning
1 Recommends(s)
120 Recognized(s)



Re: presidential election 2012: Romney v Obama

Postby SuperSneakyCow » 23 Jul 2012, 10:14

fred smith wrote:
P.S. your post-highschool level grasp of philosophy,


post high school? POST high school? really? that is your attempt at an answer?


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in saying that you weren't, at least completely, a pretentious twat, so don't get fucking indignant when you completely undershot the topic and tried a stupid, long winded personal attack.

fred smith wrote:
or ability to hold a book and flip through the pages doesn't make you an intellectual, especially if you can't grasp basic logic, and near tangible facts.


I guess that you had better keep deconstructing Republican motives then... pity that we already, in your view, control everything... except when we don't like in losing an election and possibly losing another election... so how should one deconstruct that? I wait eagerly for your post... whatever post...


Republicans have been the face of deregulation of industry, the face of money in politics, and the face of absolute, unmitigated lies. Over the past few decades they've completely corrupted politics to the point where the wealthy control it through campaign contributions. You can't do anything but only attempt ridiculous, cartoonish insults because what I said is totally right.

Your posts don't even make fucking sense. Stop replying to me.
SuperSneakyCow
Grasshopper (cǎo měng)
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 08 May 2012, 13:47
17 Recommends(s)
2 Recognized(s)



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
PreviousNext




Proceed to International Politics



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 3 visitors

I have died so little today, friend, forgive me -- THOMAS LUX