Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby Gao Bohan » 21 Oct 2010, 02:15

I'd be interested in seeing valid statistics regarding the number of 2nd and 3rd generation Turks who don't speak German. Aren't they required to go to school? Are there really that many?
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby bob_honest » 21 Oct 2010, 08:55

Yes, everybody needs to attend school. I do not think any Turk of 2nd or 3rd gen. does not speak any German, yet quite a few have some characteristic speaking style which often comes across as comical to native speakers, even though Germans are normally tolerant with dialects of foreigners or others.
However the classical low-education Turkish slang will be filled with ever-repeating "cool dude" phrases similar to "no problem" and the amount of expressions often seems rather limited.

Comedians start to depict that Turkish chatter with actors having mullets, dark sun glasses and an old sports car as a ride. Probably this depictions does not really increase job chances of the Turkish in Germany.
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby lbksig » 21 Oct 2010, 10:19

Gao Bohan wrote:I'd be interested in seeing valid statistics regarding the number of 2nd and 3rd generation Turks who don't speak German. Aren't they required to go to school? Are there really that many?


Here's a Spiegel article from 2009 where they reference a recent study that found that 2/3rds of immigrant children can't read adequately at the end of their 4th year in school.

If your name is Ümit rather than Hans or Gülcan rather than Grete, you're less likely to climb the career ladder. Some 30 percent of Turkish immigrants and their children don't have a school leaving certificate, and only 14 percent do their Abitur, as the degree from Germany's top-level high schools is called -- that's half the average of the German population.


The Globe and Mail had an article about it as well. Unfortunately they don't reference where they get their statistics from either.
By 2002, when Turks had been living there for 41 years and numbered 2.5 million, no more than 470,000 had managed to become German citizens. The German-born children of the millions denied citizenship were stranded without cultural or linguistic ties to Turkey, often without the right to start businesses or go to university in Germany.

So, without incentive to become part of the German community, many didn’t learn the language. According to one study, 80 per cent of Turkish parents can’t participate in parent-teacher meetings because their German is inadequate.
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 21 Oct 2010, 11:06

That is a massive indictment upon the German state, but it's also a massive indictment upon those individuals.

The chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany, Kenan Kolat, says Turkish immigrants should have the option of permanent dual citizenship. "If Turks in the second generation had the right to have dual citizenship, that would definitely promote their integration," says Kolat. "They wouldn't be forced to decide for or against Germany.


That's the whole problem though -- that they don't think of themselves as German. A man cannot serve two masters. Surely by making Germany your permanent home, you are choosing for Germany. No two-way bets.
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby Jaboney » 21 Oct 2010, 11:24

GuyInTaiwan wrote:That is a massive indictment upon the German state, but it's also a massive indictment upon those individuals.

The chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany, Kenan Kolat, says Turkish immigrants should have the option of permanent dual citizenship. "If Turks in the second generation had the right to have dual citizenship, that would definitely promote their integration," says Kolat. "They wouldn't be forced to decide for or against Germany.


That's the whole problem though -- that they don't think of themselves as German. A man cannot serve two masters. Surely by making Germany your permanent home, you are choosing for Germany. No two-way bets.

Well shit. Does that mean I have to give up Canadian citizenship so long as I live in Taiwan? Or my wife her Taiwanese citizenship should we decide to settle back in Canada?
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 21 Oct 2010, 11:39

It does if it's keeping you ignorant of the language, and thus, unemployed/unemployable, and thus, a drain on welfare. I assume none of those are the cases with you though, so in your or your wife's case, I'd say no.

The German welfare state, and the incentives it creates, is central to this problem. However, given that the German welfare state is not likely to go away tomorrow, I think it's reasonable for the German state (effectively, the German populace at large) to demand that if you want the possibility of collecting welfare during bad times, there has to be a high probability of you being employable during good times and generally contributing. In other words, there have to be strings attached to the handouts. Why is that so unreasonable?

If you want a true laissez-faire system where there isn't a massive welfare teat, then by all means, integration doesn't mean a damned thing.
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby lbksig » 21 Oct 2010, 11:48

Jaboney wrote:
The chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany, Kenan Kolat, says Turkish immigrants should have the option of permanent dual citizenship. "If Turks in the second generation had the right to have dual citizenship, that would definitely promote their integration," says Kolat. "They wouldn't be forced to decide for or against Germany.


Well shit. Does that mean I have to give up Canadian citizenship so long as I live in Taiwan? Or my wife her Taiwanese citizenship should we decide to settle back in Canada?
People serve multiple masters in all things. Only fanatics are fully dedicated to the service of one.


The only flaw with your analogy is that you chose to move to Taiwan or your wife would choose to move to Canada. The argument Mr. Kolat is putting forward is for those born in Germany to still retain their Turkish citizenship. I don't understand how dual citizenship would promote integration into German society, which is his argument. I would think it be even more divisive, setting Turks up as the "other" because they hold a 2nd citizenship. It doesn't address their cause for their lack of integration, only making it worse.

A comparable situation might be if two Germans moved to the US, set up residency and had a child. Their child would be considered American by being born on US territorial soil. The US government would see the the child as a US citizen but the German government could choose to recognize dual citizenship. If the Turkish government wants to recognize dual citizenship they can. Germany can also choose not to recognize dual citizenship and instead recognize the individual as a citizen or as a non-citizen (foreign passport holder).
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby cfimages » 21 Oct 2010, 11:54

GuyInTaiwan wrote:
Yet my observations of people in the four Muslim nations I have been to (Egypt, Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia, in that order) is that they seem to have an inordinate amount of time to sit around and drink tea, play backgammon or go to the mosque


It could easily be argued that those with time to drink tea, play backgammon and go to the mosque have got a much better work/life balance than those that spend every waking hour working, as is often the case in Taiwan. Based solely on the observation you make here, the people in the Muslim nations you've been to have a much better quality of life and the rest of us should probably be aspiring to that, instead of criticizing it.
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 21 Oct 2010, 12:41

cfimages: Indeed, you're quite correct in that sense (which I will get to shortly). I did say there are drawbacks to the way the Taiwanese do things, and I'm pretty critical of a whole lot of aspects of how Taiwan operates (especially its education system). That said, greater prosperity is not to be scoffed at (not that I think you're scoffing at it). It certainly has its benefits. Many Taiwanese seem to be able to travel abroad, even for relatively short periods of time. I don't think that's the case for the equivalent percentages of Turks. Life expectancy and other such measures are also better in Taiwan, which aside from other things, is probably a function of prosperity/development.

You might be surprised to learn that of all the countries I have visited, Turkey was probably my favourite, though holidaying somewhere and working there are two different matters. I had heard great things before I went there, and I was expecting that to be hyperbole, but I was absolutely blown away by the place. Turkish hospitality is second to none, and it's an amazing country with a wealth of landscapes and an incredible history and culture, though I still think a lot of people there were really lazy and didn't help themselves, and it's not on a par with Taiwan in terms of development. If I had to choose over Taiwan or Turkey to live in, Taiwan would be better for my current situation in life simply because of how much I can earn and save here. In Turkey, as an English teacher (which I looked into and was offered a position for), you live well compared to most locals, but you don't really move forward. If I were an average local, I think my prospects would probably be better as a Taiwanese than a Turk. If I were older and relatively comfortable, Taiwan wouldn't even be in the hunt. If I were super-rich, well, it probably wouldn't make such a difference either way.
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Re: Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed

Postby suiyuan31 » 21 Oct 2010, 15:15

Reading what people from Germany have wrote, it seems clear to me that the problem is Germany gave welfare money not just to immigrants, but then allowed those on welfare to support their family members to come as well. If any country has a policy that says "Come here and we'll financially support you" then what kind of people do such policies attract? We can blame the immigrants for being lazy, but what did Germany expect to attract with such policies? If they wanted PhD's then perhaps giving grants for research would have been better than saying "Come here with no plan and we'll support you." Why would anyone expect, given that the policy attracted people with no ambition and no plan, that such people will change? It doesn't make sense. They know there is a problem with their policies and they need to change them to reflect the types of people they want to attract.

If this is the case, and I have not misunderstood what people have wrote, then saying "multiculturalism has failed" kind of misses the point. Multiculturalism hasn't failed-supporting anyone financially because of German "white guilt" has failed. Perhaps better stated, multiculturalism will fail if we let people in who have no ambition to do anything except get on welfare.
lbksig wrote:Here's a Spiegel article from 2009 where they reference a recent study that found that 2/3rds of immigrant children can't read adequately at the end of their 4th year in school.
If 2/3rds of immigrant children cannot read at the end of fourth year, that shows a HUGE problem with the education system. WTF are teachers doing that allow for such numbers? Sad, that is.
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