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American nationalism

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IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Postby Closet Queen » 01 Jun 2003, 21:48

tigerman wrote:Read the article again!


This is becoming a rather tedious response of yours to posters who offer a different opinion or interpretation of an article or statement. Do all we dissenters need to reread until we come around to your position? Get over yourself. My response stands and needs no defence.

tigerman wrote:So? What has this to do with the article's points?


That would be more interpretation of the relevant issues. Granted I took a tangential approach to some of the comments, but that
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Postby Okami » 01 Jun 2003, 22:00

I think the point most people don't understand about American nationalism is that it is an unindoctrinated choice. No one is writing foolish articles or drivel about how great their country is or how bad another country is. You can agree to disagree in the US and not have to worry about the police knocking on your door(for the most part).

You can be an American and hate the US and that is your choice. I've seen many people who do. It's still a choice, though. What people want in this world is to be heard and have choice in their life. How many students in Taiwan really get to choose their major? In the US they can study whatever they want if they can and choose to do so. There are no "hukuo"(sp?) or something to keep you stuck to one area. The oppurtunity to start a business or live your life as you choose is all there.

The American system is a tradition handed down by our forefathers. It works, though not always perfectly. It protects rights of the minority from the majority rule. In the US there are a variety of different groups who get together on their own to talk about the choices they made to be in what groups for what causes. The ideas espoused by the founding fathers of the US would be censored or persecuted by most members of the UN. These ideas appear to be quite revolutionary in this day and age in most parts of the world after being put forth over 200 years ago. I find this quite remarkable.

What gets the rest of the world is having to live with the fact that the US can act how it wants without the restraints of the Cold War. Why do we need to follow a failed Mideast policy for any longer? Why do we still need so many troops in Germany? Is now not the best time to start holding Saudi Arabia responsible for the export of its fanatical Wahabi Islam? I don't see a lot of other countries doing these things or asking these questions. In the past decade, we have seen a whole lot of navel-gazing from Europe with very little action, the FUBAR qualities of Russia(thank god for natural resources), the ongoing everpersistent Middle East problems, Latin American countries in an everexpanding debt default policies(God please help Lula, he needs it), Asian countries just shaking off the effects of The Asian Financial Crisis to have the problems come back and haunt them due to inadequate structural change(Taiwan is currently experiencing deflation), and an ever increasingly well-armed China bully its way around the world. These problems compare in what to the US's?

Looking at the rest of the world and some Americans do, especially those with a stake in the future, we see a world a mess. Failed countries, failed policies, corruption, war, terrorism on an unimaginable scale and the US has decided on a change. We may have these problems at home, but they can be dealt with by the laws set forth and enforced by an independent judiciary. In many other countries, this is and has never been the case. It's sad really that so many people in so many countries perpetuate a victim's complex for nationalism and think this worthy for themselves and their children. In the US, we try to rise above that. There is so much more to look forward to in life, why whine about past wrongs, why not talk about the past in a soul searching dialogue and figure out how to never again repeat the same mistakes of our forefathers. We can engage in private civic duty and not be persecuted for it, like many other forumosan members' countries. They made a choice too and I respect that. That's what it means to be an American.

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Postby Tigerman » 01 Jun 2003, 23:03

Sodom wrote:Sigh. Tigerman, I spent a good 30 minutes reading it and just as long replying. If you can?t credit others with at least a modicum of intelligence, there is little point in my making considered responses to your comments.


But I do credit you with plenty of intelligence... that's why I cannot understand your above comments. How could you state that feelings of "nationalism" derive from the same origin for "any" nation... Do you think that such feelings of nationalism are natural in North Korea? China? Saddam's Iraq?

tigerman wrote:Are you saying that you don't think the situation in China is different?


Sodom wrote:Where that came from, I?ve no idea. It?s an invention on your part as I made no mention of China the nationalism of any other countries.


It came in response to your following statement:

Soddom wrote:I find the author's comment that (American) values are inculcated willingly, embraced and not artificially indoctrinated risible, for any country, not just the US.
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

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Postby maoman » 02 Jun 2003, 00:04

I think it is also important to note that we can hate the party/person/administration in power and still be considered patriotic. The other day I was talking to a local friend about the whole SARS thing. I told her that I had lost faith in the gov't to deal with the matter effectively. She said that she still supported the DPP because she didn't want to be viewed as being unpatriotic. I asked her if KMT, PFP, New Party, TSU, and Green Party supporters were unpatriotic, and she wavered... :?
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Postby LittleBuddhaTW » 02 Jun 2003, 00:45

Very well put, Okami ... you said everything (and more) that I would have wanted to say.
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Postby Anonymous » 02 Jun 2003, 09:01

Okami wrote:I think the point most people don't understand about American nationalism is that it is an unindoctrinated choice. No one is writing foolish articles or drivel about how great their country is or how bad another country is. You can agree to disagree in the US and not have to worry about the police knocking on your door(for the most part).


Among countries with a strong liberal democratic tradition, this is unremarkable (although most such countries don't get schoolkids to pay obeisance to the flag or trot out the national anthem for all and sundry events. But anyway). So again, this point seems to me to be pertinent only if you are comparing the US to, say, the PRC.

Among the developed democracies, US nationalism is an aberration.
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Postby Comrade Stalin » 02 Jun 2003, 09:16

salmon wrote:Among the developed democracies, US nationalism is an aberration.

I think by "deveolped democracies" you actually mean European "welfare states" and their clones. BWAHAHA! What on earth do they have to be nationalistic about?
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Postby Gavin Januarus » 02 Jun 2003, 09:42

blueface666 wrote:I think by "deveolped democracies" you actually mean European "welfare states" and their clones. BWAHAHA! What on earth do they have to be nationalistic about?


Careful, Blueface, that's the Coalition of the Willing you're talking about. If they find out how little respect you really have for them 'the morning after' next time you need them you're going to find out that the Coalition has been reduced to nothing more than yourself and your right hand. :D
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Just an interesting point

Postby fred smith » 02 Jun 2003, 10:30

While Sweden is considered a very "advanced" economy, the Economist recently revealed that the per capita income of African Americans (the poorest segment of the US population) is higher than that of Sweden. That said, I am not sure how many Swedes would be willing to trade places with those Black Americans. Just wanted to point out that despite the statistics on poverty, they actually do quite well compared with other nations.
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Postby Comrade Stalin » 02 Jun 2003, 10:44

Gavin Januarus wrote:Careful, Blueface, that's the Coalition of the Willing you're talking about. If they find out how little respect you really have for them 'the morning after' next time you need them you're going to find out that the Coalition has been reduced to nothing more than yourself and your right hand. :D

My right hand is a hell of alot more useful. :lol:
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