"Taiwan, Province of China"

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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby urodacus » 15 Feb 2011, 07:27

Herodotus, where do you get the pedantic authority to continue pushing such a defeatist attitude? Get some real-politik into you, man.

To all intents and purposes, the situation is just as Craig TPE describes it. The only impediments to ditching the ROC fiction completely are KMT holdouts such as Ma and Lien and their ill-born ilk, China waving its big bully stick, and propagandists and inadvertent fifth columnists such as yourself.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby tommy525 » 15 Feb 2011, 09:41

CraigTPE wrote:
Herodotus wrote:My claim is that in point of fact that this country is the Republic of China, and that in this country, Taiwan is a province of China.

Taiwan being a province of China is only on paper. In daily life, I just don't see it.


I thought the ROC already acknowledged the fact that they do not rule the mainland of China (and most likely never will) and therefore they only govern the islands of Taiwan, the pescadores, green island, orchid island and Kinmen (Jinmen) (and maybe a few other smaller island/rocks)?

Thus in reality there is still the Peoples Rep of China which rules mainland China and purports to rule TAiwan and islands/rocks under the latters control . And there is the Rep of China, former ruling govt of China and in fact the first government of China that was not dynastic. But presently governing only the island of Taiwan and a few other smaller island/rocks.

There still exists TWO different Chinas in this world. And in this world TAiwan is a province of the Rep of China in fact and a province of PRC's china in contention.

There does not exist a Rep of Taiwan. However The Rep of China has become synonymous with Taiwan.

That is the reality.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Vorkosigan » 15 Feb 2011, 09:46

tommy525 wrote:There still exists TWO different Chinas in this world. And in this world TAiwan is a province of the Rep of China in fact and a province of PRC's china in contention.


Taiwan is NOT a province of the ROC in fact. It is only claimed by the ROC. "In fact" its status is undetermined. Once again, we must post:

"After signing the treaty, the ROC delegate, then ROC foreign minister George Yeh (葉公超), faced harsh questioning from legislators in a Legislative Yuan meeting regarding why the treaty between the ROC and Japan did not state unambiguously that Taiwan and Penghu were returned to the ROC.

Yeh replied that "No provision has been made either in the San Francisco Treaty or the Sino-Japanese Treaty as to the future of Taiwan and Penghu." Yeh further explained: "In fact, we control them now, and undoubtedly they constitute a part of our territories. The delicate international situation, however, means that they do not belong to us. In these circumstances, Japan has no right to transfer Formosa (Taiwan) and the Pescadores (Penghu) to us. Nor could we accept such a transfer from Japan even if she wished to do so."[1]

In 1972 upon establishment of diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China, Japanese Foreign Minister Ohira announced that the treaty had become obsolete and was therefore rescinded (as he had been requested by the PRC to do), though the legality of the move was subject to some debate. According to the Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China, Japan understood and respected (but not necessarily recognized) the PRC position that Taiwan was part of the PRC.

the ROC Minister of Foreign Affairs George Kung-ch'ao Yeh (葉公超) told the Legislative Yuan after signing the treaty that: "The delicate international situation makes it that they [Taiwan and Penghu] do not belong to us. Under present circumstances, Japan has no right to transfer [Taiwan] to us; nor can we accept such a transfer from Japan even if she so wishes." [5]"
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby CraigTPE » 15 Feb 2011, 09:57

Intellectual masturbation.

There is one China, and that be the PRC. Taiwan is Taiwan. From a practical, daily life point of view.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby tommy525 » 15 Feb 2011, 10:00

I repeat what I said. The ROC has become synonymous with TAIWAN . In fact they have become essentially inseparable in todays context.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby TheGingerMan » 15 Feb 2011, 10:29

Vorkosigan wrote:
tommy525 wrote:There still exists TWO different Chinas in this world. And in this world TAiwan is a province of the Rep of China in fact and a province of PRC's china in contention.


Taiwan is NOT a province of the ROC in fact. It is only claimed by the ROC. "In fact" its status is undetermined.

In fact, there is no such thing as the R.O.C., by all tenets of international law.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Vorkosigan » 15 Feb 2011, 12:10

tommy525 wrote:I repeat what I said. The ROC has become synonymous with TAIWAN . In fact they have become essentially inseparable in todays context.


Sure, that's one of the goals of KMT propaganda, but that's not the same as the ROC owning Taiwan. Which was what I was responding to. I think that whenever possible the issues with that identification need to be pointed out.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Mr He » 15 Feb 2011, 12:45

No it's not. People overseas will more than often mistake ROC for PRC.

CFase in point - my missus has a passport, where the words "Taiwan" are not printed on the cover.

People from Taiwan can get visa free access to the Schengen states currently. However, if your passport says Republic of China, odds are that they will be confused a bit - I had to point that my wife was both in Taiwan as per the passport before they let her in - or out.

So the ROC crap does not work overseas, unless you want to be mistaken for a PRC citizen.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby urodacus » 15 Feb 2011, 12:47

Republic of China, Province of China: what's the difference?
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby tommy525 » 15 Feb 2011, 14:22

You can see why the USA and Japan do not really want to get involved in the issue of Taiwan. In some ways both of those nations would not mind much if China were to take over, so long as it was all "peaceful" . Because China has become more important to the USA as well as Japan. Although both of these nations also have a healthy trade with Taiwan. Especially Japan which enjoys and has enjoyed for decades a huge trade surplus with the island.

IT should be said that the ROC govt on Taiwan should also get some or a lot of the credit for the success of the people of Taiwan in achieving a high standard of living currently prevailing on the island.

The people of Taiwan get credit for being industrious and their "can do" attitude in the last few decades. But they also had a govt that was able to get things done.

The ROC came to Taiwan with quite a nice stash of gold as well as the support of the United States govt. Mistakes were made (228 anyone?, white terror anyone else?). But by and large the govt does deserve credit for providing the people of Taiwan the proper tools to make a successful society.

I do believe the peoples of the phillippines for example couldve made their nation into a powerhouse as well if they had a better govt. The ROC govt does deserve a lot of credit in my book.

Politically they also brought a LOT of political garbage to the status of Taiwan. A very large unfinished business with the PRC and the PRC's China.

Turning back the clock. Taiwan shouldve been given back to Japan after WW2. The Japanese govt wouldve had many of the tools still left in place to help Taiwan back to its feet same as on mainland Japan. There would be no Taiwan question today.

The PRC likely would have exterminated the ROC or if the latter was lucky they wouldve repeated the "Taiwan Miracle (and debacle) on Hainan"
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