"Taiwan, Province of China"

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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Herodotus » 16 Feb 2011, 00:50

Muzha Man wrote:
As far as I can recall, the United States, for example, regularly recognizes that China is one and that Taiwan is a part of China, but that the current 'internal' dispute should be resolved by diplomatic and peaceful means.


No. The US merely recognizes that it is the Chinese position that Taiwan is an inalienable part of China. But this is not the US position. You see, everyone plays word games on this issue.


I concede the point.

"The United States acknowledged the Chinese position that all Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait maintain that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China." (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/18902.htm)
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Mucha Man » 16 Feb 2011, 01:05

Herodotus wrote:I concede the point. admit I was completely wrong.

"The United States acknowledged the Chinese position that all Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait maintain that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China." (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/18902.htm)


Fixed that for you. :wink:
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Herodotus » 16 Feb 2011, 01:11

Thanks.

The ADMIT ERROR key on my computer has been broken for a while, and I keep forgetting to have it fixed.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Mucha Man » 16 Feb 2011, 01:19

Herodotus wrote:Thanks.

The ADMIT ERROR key on my computer has been broken for a while, and I keep forgetting to have it fixed.


A stalwart chap. Excellent reply. :thumbsup:
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

http://hikingintaiwan.blogspot.com/
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby tommy525 » 16 Feb 2011, 02:07

The world recognizes that there are two Koreas. There is NOrth Korea and there is South Korea. Nobody thinks they are the same . There are still two Chinas in the world, whether some believe that to to be the case or not.

The people on Taiwan hold a passport issued by the Rep of China and are citizens of the Rep of China. Whether the govt of the Rep of China is recognized or not it is the de facto govt of the people of Taiwan.

That is the reality. There are Two Chinas in the world just as there are Two Koreas.

The reality is that (even if not to be mentioned in polite conversation) Taiwan is in fact a province of the Rep of China. Whether or not the Rep of China has a right to rule Taiwan may be subject to interpretation but the only other govt wanting to actually challenge that position is the Peoples Rep of China. A govt most people on Taiwan will not accept as their govt.

The USA does not claim or want to claim Taiwan, and neither does Japan. China does though.

I think there is a sizable number of people on Taiwan that want to jettison the Rep of China and set up the Rep of Taiwan but China, the USA and Japan would not support this idea because those countries all have quite a say in this matter. And war is unpleasant for all.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Herodotus » 16 Feb 2011, 02:14

tommy525 wrote:The reality is that (even if not to be mentioned in polite conversation) Taiwan is in fact a province of the Rep of China. Whether or not the Rep of China has a right to rule Taiwan may be subject to interpretation but the only other govt wanting to actually challenge that position is the Peoples Rep of China. A govt most people on Taiwan will not accept as their govt.

The USA does not claim or want to claim Taiwan, and neither does Japan. China does though.

I think there is a sizable number of people on Taiwan that want to jettison the Rep of China and set up the Rep of Taiwan but China, the USA and Japan would not support this idea because those countries all have quite a say in this matter. And war is unpleasant for all.


Agreed.

I am still not quite clear why saying this is so controversial, though.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby tommy525 » 16 Feb 2011, 02:28

Herodotus wrote:
tommy525 wrote:The reality is that (even if not to be mentioned in polite conversation) Taiwan is in fact a province of the Rep of China. Whether or not the Rep of China has a right to rule Taiwan may be subject to interpretation but the only other govt wanting to actually challenge that position is the Peoples Rep of China. A govt most people on Taiwan will not accept as their govt.

The USA does not claim or want to claim Taiwan, and neither does Japan. China does though.

I think there is a sizable number of people on Taiwan that want to jettison the Rep of China and set up the Rep of Taiwan but China, the USA and Japan would not support this idea because those countries all have quite a say in this matter. And war is unpleasant for all.


Agreed.

I am still not quite clear why saying this is so controversial, though.


Its considered inflamatory for those who wish to remove the Rep of China from the map and set up a Rep of Taiwan. The chicoms are happy to assert that currently the island of Taiwan is run by the Rep of China and happy to reach a sort of One Country - two Systems vis-a-vis the Rep of China on this topic.

The PRC has said that they can work with a One Country Two systems . But people doubt how benevolent the PRC will be with that because in fact that is ALREADY the case as it is.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Herodotus » 16 Feb 2011, 04:38

tommy525 wrote:Its considered inflamatory for those who wish to remove the Rep of China from the map and set up a Rep of Taiwan.


I don't know. I am sympathetic to the desire to replace the Republic of China with a Republic of Taiwan. As far as I can tell, what sticks in most people's craw (if that's how you spell the word) is when you point out that the Taiwanese people themselves acquiesce to Taiwan's status as a province of China. There is something gut-wrenching about it, at least for me, but I think it points to the price this society is paying every single day. When progress was being made towards democracy, in fits and starts during the '80s and '90s and up until the shine wore off Chen Shuibian, it was not such a burden, but after years now of relative democratic stagnation, I think it has to make itself felt on this society, perhaps hollowing it out.

I am not in favor of blood at all, Muzha Man. I am in favor of carefully weighing all the essential facts, making the hard decisions--not in Western capitals, but in the hearts of the Taiwanese--about how to move forward, and then executing those decisions. I think there is now a culture of victimization among the democratic/independence crowd that is becoming monotonous and debilitating. Apparently, we can't wait to get rid of Ma Ying-jeou so we can replace him with somebody who will make futile gestures like applying for UN membership or making bold initiatives such as not signing a trade deal with China. And I don't mean futile because the UN will reject the bid. I mean futile insofar as nobody is likely to pay any attention to it.

The answer to the Taiwan Question is not in the political or diplomatic processes. Obviously, the KMT has no interest in acknowledging that, but neither does the DPP. It seems to be becoming the green patronage machine, and it has every interest in pushing the Taiwan=ROC line. Stir the pot, win some votes, and then back to the business at hand. That's its bread and butter, and the KMT are happy enough to tow the same line when they have to. So, why do they get away with it? A lot of reasons, but chiefly, the Taiwanese people let them do so.

In hindsight, it appears that the Shi Mingde protests were a watershed moment for the green movement, but they opted for power and they never looked back.
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby Gao Bohan » 16 Feb 2011, 05:06

Herodotus wrote:I am still not quite clear why saying this is so controversial, though.


I find it more unclear than controversial. How are you defining the term "country"? You say Taiwan is not a country, but Tibet is. Is the sole defining criteria that the people within a certain geographical area have attempted to assert their independence?
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Re: "Taiwan, Province of China"

Postby tommy525 » 16 Feb 2011, 06:35

Most Taiwanese want to differentiate themselves from the Chinese in China but many do consider themselves to be Chinese in origin, even if in fact some of their genealogy is taiwanese aborigine.

Not all want a nation of Taiwan, but most do I think.
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