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US Budget

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IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Re: US Budget

Postby Dr. McCoy » 20 Apr 2011, 12:10

Like Japan?
Japan had is credit rating lowered. They didn't have massive inflation. They print their own money.
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Re: US Budget

Postby Gman » 20 Apr 2011, 12:28

cfimages wrote: But the thing is, you wouldn't get that many declaring an interest because most people don't have the talent. Playing to a crowd of no one or getting boos or being told you suck will have the vast majority hanging up the mic very quickly. Society benefits by unearthing more great music and art etc. There's no need to recover the investment because society is not a business.


The recovery of investment refers to the benefit society recives relative the money society expends. And if you think some no talent who is in it for the susidized lifestyle is going to care or even bother getting up on stage?

It would cost $600 billion to fund every American to the tune of, say $20 000 per year (based on a 300 million pop). That's a bit over $1500/month which I figure should be more than enough for the basics to be met. According to Gao bohan's chart earlier, there's already $350 billion of so spent on unemployment / welfare a year so redirecting that and you've funded over half already. Social security would see less demand so the budget for that could be moved over to account for more. Health care costs would fall as less people became ill with stress related issues and poverty-related illnesses. Petty crime, theft etc. would likely drop. If you calculated all the cost savings they'd be most likely to be more than the cost of providing the funding which would actually save the govt money. In a worst case scenario, there are 412 billionaires in the US would could easily pay an extra tax without it having any real or noticeable effect on their fortune.


I assure you funding every American to the tune of $20,000 a year will cost far more than $600 billion a year. Don't forget administration costs. Less stress? Sure fund people to sit around and do nothing but eat junk food, smoke and drink. Yeah, that'll reduce healthcare alright.

I believe your from Austrailia right? Why don't you campaign to have your system impialmented there? Try it on a smaller scale and see how it works. As long as Austrailia doesn't need to import anything you should be fine.
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Re: US Budget

Postby Mr He » 20 Apr 2011, 12:30

Dr. McCoy wrote:Like Japan?
Japan had is credit rating lowered. They didn't have massive inflation. They print their own money.


Yes, but japanese save their money and buy government bonds for them, or puts them into the postal savings, which accounts for the same.

That keeps inflation down.

Americans spend the money before they get them, that's a difference.
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Re: US Budget

Postby Dr. McCoy » 20 Apr 2011, 13:00

Mr He wrote:Yes, but japanese save their money and buy government bonds for them, or puts them into the postal savings, which accounts for the same.

That keeps inflation down.

Americans spend the money before they get them, that's a difference.

I know you know more than I do Mr. He, but I've been reading a lot about this: Modern Money Theory
It might turn out to be some crackpot pseudo-scientific thing, but it sounds good so far. I'll have to study about it some more.
Can the government run out of money? The U.S. government can’t run out of money any more than the Washington Nationals Baseball team stadium can run out of points. Every time a ball game is played at Washington National Stadium, some team scores some points and they appear on the screen and then the other team scores and some more points appear on the screen. And there’s nobody behind the screen going, ‘Hey Johnny, we’re running out of points here’, you know, right? Look in the trust fund. That’s not the way it happens. You just add the points.

It would be nice if it was true.
There is a relationship between the power the state has in the monetary sphere and the power that it can exert in the political policy sphere. There is no revenue constraint for governments that control the money that sits at the top of the hierarchy. Does that mean that we should spend without limit? No. No. Emphatically no. As the economy recovers, spending will need to be regulated to prevent inflation. But I would argue, and I think what we’re all here to argue today is that it’s time to stop allowing the monetary system to limit our range of policy options. It is causing unnecessary human suffering and it’s time for us to begin to recognize the advantages of a Modern Monetary System. Thank you.
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Re: US Budget

Postby cfimages » 20 Apr 2011, 14:57

Gman, talk to some long term unemployed and most will tell you that it is incredibly boring. A living wage will not create substantially more people sitting around smoking, drinking and eating junk food. It's not enough money for that out or any kind of life of leisure and not intended to be. My 20k figure was chosen at random because I don't know the average cost of basic living in the US. 10k may be enough.

As for admin costs, there wouldn't really be any, certainly no more than there is already for various welfare tasks. A social security number linked to a bank account and tax details is all you'd need. There may be a one off setup cost for data entry, but after that an automatic payment each month would only incur the cost of bank fees and server space. When someone dies, the doctor issuing the death certificate simply checks a box on the database to close the file. Same for adding someone new - when filing tax the first time a new entry is created. Simple and not more than a minute work needed.
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Re: US Budget

Postby Dr. McCoy » 20 Apr 2011, 15:16

We have to decide what people are worth. In the old days you had to work hard and struggle to live. Everybody had to pitch it or perish. But it's not like that anymore. It's nice if everyone has a job, but is it possible? is it neccessary? Because there's not enough work are we going to tell people that don't have jobs to go off and starve because they are worthless? Nobody wants to do that.
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Re: US Budget

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 20 Apr 2011, 15:23

cfimages: I know you're talking about unemployed, rather than retired/independently wealthy, but I'd love not to have to work tomorrow. My mother always asks my father (who sold his business almost a year and a half ago) what he did that day and he tells her nothing. When she remarks that he did that the day before he tells her that he wasn't finished. My father finds all sorts of stuff to keep him occupied. I'm sure I would too. I'm sure plenty would and I think it's a big assumption to think that they wouldn't. I don't see how spending all day on Forumosa would be any less meaningful than many jobs. A person could spend a lifetime screwing about on the Internet alone, not to mention watching DVDs, playing computer games or pulling cones all night and sleeping in until the mid-afternoon. Millions would like a piece of that, I'm sure.

Didn't Oscar Wilde say something about work being the curse of the drinking classes? That's certainly how I view it. The sooner I get off the treadmill, the better.
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Re: US Budget

Postby Dr. McCoy » 20 Apr 2011, 15:30

prisoners
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Re: US Budget

Postby Gman » 20 Apr 2011, 16:29

cfimages wrote:Gman, talk to some long term unemployed and most will tell you that it is incredibly boring.
Then ask them if they'd take work at a fast food place or as a janitor. I've done that work in my time and it's was as about as exciting as being unemployed

A living wage will not create substantially more people sitting around smoking, drinking and eating junk food.

Have you known people on welfare? Because I have, and that's exactly what they do.

It's not enough money for that out or any kind of life of leisure and not intended to be. My 20k figure was chosen at random because I don't know the average cost of basic living in the US. 10k may be enough.


The bottom line is this, every 10k a year you give them is 10k a year less incentive they have to do anything. We aren't even getting to discussing what effect giving out free money would have on prices.

As for admin costs, there wouldn't really be any, certainly no more than there is already for various welfare tasks. A social security number linked to a bank account and tax details is all you'd need. There may be a one off setup cost for data entry, but after that an automatic payment each month would only incur the cost of bank fees and server space. When someone dies, the doctor issuing the death certificate simply checks a box on the database to close the file. Same for adding someone new - when filing tax the first time a new entry is created. Simple and not more than a minute work needed.


When have you ever seen a government program run efficiently? For me the bottom line is this. You claim society would benifit in non monetary ways. I dispute this. You say that your idea would improve the artistic output as an example. I doubt it, we have no shortage of musicians or other artists in our society and while your idea might increase the quantity of the 'art' out there I doubt very much it would improve the quality.
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Re: US Budget

Postby Dr. McCoy » 20 Apr 2011, 17:00

I think the government does a fine job in a lot of things.
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