Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

A resource forum for those interested in buying, selling, or developing a business; for questions about retirement plans; investing and basically any aspect of acquiring, keeping and increasing one's personal stash of filthy lucre.

Moderator: Charlie Phillips

Which sovereign nation will default on their bonds next?

1. Japan
0
No votes
2. Greece (again)
5
42%
3. Spain
5
42%
4. Ireland
0
No votes
5. Portugal
1
8%
6. other
1
8%
 
Total votes : 12

Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby SillyWilly » 23 Apr 2012, 09:00

After Greece's default a month ago people are looking around to find the next default candidate.
Which sovereign might it be, and why?

My money is on Spain.

Here's why: http://www.munknee.com/2012/04/graham-s ... heres-why/

[b]Demographics

Spain’s demographics alone are setting Spain up for a sovereign debt Crisis. [Take a look:]
• Currently there is 1 person of non-working age (65 or older) for every 4 people of working age (15-64) in Spain.
• This is expected to worsen to 1 person of non-working age for every 3 people of working age by 2025 and
• an astounding more than 1 person of non-working age for every 2 people of working age by 2040.
Banking System
[As bad as Spain's demographics are] it is its banking system that really sets it apart. Let’s consider the following facts:
• Total Spanish banking loans are equal to 170% of Spanish GDP.
• Troubled loans at Spanish Banks just hit an 18-year high of over 8%.
• Spanish Banks are drawing a record €316.3 billion from the ECB (up from €169.2 billion in February).

[Believe it or not], even… [the above statistics] don’t paint the real picture. Thanks to a property bubble that dwarfed [that in] the U.S. in relative terms, Spain’s economy and corporate arena are now literally saturated with debt. Consider the following:
• Spanish non-financial corporations’ gross debts outstanding are equal to 196% of Spain’s GDP (this is worse than that of Greece, Portugal [and] even Japan)
• Spanish non-financial corporations sport debt-to-equity ratios of 152% (only Greece and Japan are worse here)
• Spanish household debt is equal to 90% of the country’s GDP [which is] much higher than the EU average of 70% and roughly inline with that of the U.S. which has been running a credit bubble for 30+ years.
Conclusion
• In simple terms, Spain is like Greece, only bigger and worse. According to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) worldwide exposure to Spain is…[in excess] of $1 TRILLION (the U.K. is at $51 billion, the U.S. at $187 billion, France at $224 billion and Germany on the hook for a whopping $244 billion).


If Spain chooses…to stage a default or a messy debt restructuring, we’re going to see:
• systemic crisis that would make Lehman look like a joke,
• the breaking up of the EU and
• a bear market in bonds (which we have not seen in roughly 30 years)
Forumosan avatar
SillyWilly
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 272
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 12 Jan 2012, 12:29
1 Recommends(s)
5 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 23 Apr 2012, 09:05

So, I take it you're heavily shorting Spain then?
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
GuyInTaiwan
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
 
Posts: 7231
Joined: 10 Jun 2008, 23:01
341 Recommends(s)
273 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby SillyWilly » 23 Apr 2012, 09:31

GuyInTaiwan wrote:So, I take it you're heavily shorting Spain then?


Wish I could. But shorting the Euro doesn't make much sense since Spain is only one of many countries using the currency. When Italy stands to default, shorting the Euro might be smart.

Any suggestions on how to short Spain, other than currency?
Forumosan avatar
SillyWilly
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 272
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 12 Jan 2012, 12:29
1 Recommends(s)
5 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby headhonchoII » 23 Apr 2012, 09:34

My opinion on Spain is that it had a property bubble that was equivalent to Ireland's in terms of madness but

a) The banks have not even started recognising the bad debts from this bubble yet in Spain (because as soon as the banks start foreclosing , they kill themselves since they must recognise the REAL value has dropped by as much as half!). This is a really big problem, because what really caused Ireland to need an IMF loan was the failure of the banks due to property speculation and the government making the private debt public and surpassing the ability to pay back the national debt. Now the national debt in Spain does not even include the debts from the property bust!
b) Spain's economy is not very productive, it's got huge structural problems. With 25% unempoyment and 50% youth unemployment it's in dire straits. Regional govenrments have loaded up on debt too. Ireland has a pretty good economy in parts and good demographics.

So yes, Ireland still went bust with many cards that Spain doesn't even have. Spain is in big doodoo. The argument some make is that Spain's banks and companies have extensive assets in South America. Hmm, didn't seem to go well for them in Argentina recently when the Argentines nationalised a Spanish oil company.

If Spain could devalue it's currency it would be okay. Inflate away the debt and gain competitiveness again. Can Spain stay in the Euro? The Euro is a disaster for Spain, Greece and Portugal. They should drop out. The British would be in a bad situation too except that they have the GBP. Ironic that the Eurosceptics were right about that one.

However I still think it is the Greeks that will default next, again!


PS- Spain is going to get a bailout plan just like Greece. You can see the ECB and IMF increasing their pot of gold to get ready. The Germans have no choice but to agree with this and in fact it will be a bailout of Germany at the same time, as per those 244 billion Euro that is owed to German banks. Italy has had much of the focus but Italy is not in as bad a state as Spain and most of the debt there is based locally.
I can remember the fourth of July runnin' through the backwood bare.
And I can still hear my old hound dog barkin' chasin' down a hoodoo there
Chasin' down a hoodoo there.
headhonchoII
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 12652
Joined: 26 Aug 2002, 10:40
Location: Taipei
1736 Recommends(s)
623 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 23 Apr 2012, 09:35

Wouldn't you short Spanish bonds in particular, and maybe even Spanish companies?
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
GuyInTaiwan
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
 
Posts: 7231
Joined: 10 Jun 2008, 23:01
341 Recommends(s)
273 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 23 Apr 2012, 09:48

And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
GuyInTaiwan
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
 
Posts: 7231
Joined: 10 Jun 2008, 23:01
341 Recommends(s)
273 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby SillyWilly » 23 Apr 2012, 10:03

GuyInTaiwan wrote:Wouldn't you short Spanish bonds in particular, and maybe even Spanish companies?


Again, would love to, but logistics not that easy. Opening a Spanish bond/equity trading account? Wouldn't know where to begin.
Any thoughts on how to do that?
Forumosan avatar
SillyWilly
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 272
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 12 Jan 2012, 12:29
1 Recommends(s)
5 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby SillyWilly » 23 Apr 2012, 10:26

GuyInTaiwan wrote:


Hilarious :roflmao: !
Forumosan avatar
SillyWilly
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 272
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 12 Jan 2012, 12:29
1 Recommends(s)
5 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby SillyWilly » 23 Apr 2012, 10:33

headhonchoII wrote:
PS- Spain is going to get a bailout plan just like Greece. You can see the ECB and IMF increasing their pot of gold to get ready. The Germans have no choice but to agree with this and in fact it will be a bailout of Germany at the same time, as per those 244 billion Euro that is owed to German banks. Italy has had much of the focus but Italy is not in as bad a state as Spain and most of the debt there is based locally.


Is it even possible to bailout Spain? The ECB would have to turn on the spigots again and print like the madmen they are.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... Rajoy.html
Forumosan avatar
SillyWilly
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 272
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 12 Jan 2012, 12:29
1 Recommends(s)
5 Recognized(s)



Re: Which Sovereign Nation is Next to Default?

Postby headhonchoII » 23 Apr 2012, 11:35

The Prime Minister doesn't want it to look like they need a bailout, as that will just precipitate it faster. None of them admit they need a bailout right up to the last minute. Anyway, I don't like the word 'bailout', as it is a bit unfair and the money is still owed back to the central bank while the private bondholders get paid off.
I can remember the fourth of July runnin' through the backwood bare.
And I can still hear my old hound dog barkin' chasin' down a hoodoo there
Chasin' down a hoodoo there.
headhonchoII
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 12652
Joined: 26 Aug 2002, 10:40
Location: Taipei
1736 Recommends(s)
623 Recognized(s)



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
Next




Proceed to Money



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 1 visitor

If you bow at all, bow low -- CHINESE PROVERB