Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Tortue » 22 Mar 2009, 15:59

Hi Jeff, and welcome to Forumosa!


thank you thank you :bow:

Raise a Taiwanese family here, and you might have a different perspective.


No kids for now (not likely to happen for now, too busy) but I'm already married to a TW girl.

but because it's SO unlikely to happen within our lifetimes,


I often think about that and I'm split between the exponential changes that occuring in the PRC and profound anchoring of CPC in the economic and political life. Hard to say when it will occurs but we're a lot in here (I'm in HK currently) to think that it'll definitely change :-->

http://carnegieendowment.org/publicatio ... 7&prog=zch

so your opinion is largely academic.


Totally agree with (both of) you, I'm after all a "Rat de bibliothèque" (Library's Rat i.e Scholars).

The PRC is the legal government of China and any argument to portray it otherwise is made of whole clothe.


The USSR was the only one legal govermement of Russia and any argument to portray it otherwise was made of whole clothe. I still believe that we should not confused the victim and it's murderer (Soljestine).

overwhelmingly do not want to unify with China


I would say "overwhelmingly (i.e all) do not want to unify with PRC" (Me either !), I think they have much less problem with "china" itself.

and are not in the slightest interested in "taking it back


Who talked about include the mainland to Taiwan ? I talk about the opposite

Code: Select all
They therefore have no right to make claims over territory that they do not control, and whose people have not voted for them


Ho Really ? As far as I remember when Ma has been elected, the party's name was still "Nationalist Party of China" (Tell you guys, if in France we have a party named "Nationalist Party of Italy/UK/Tunisia" claiming to resolve all the economic problem, they won't get a single vote) and it's status (available on the official website) still claims that "Taiwan is a province of ROC" among many other things.

You need to recognize this country for what it is now


What I find fascinating with Taiwan politic is that depending on the angle of view, we get totally differents answers.

in 2009, and not what a tiny cabal of unelected party members still dream of


There is a chinese (sorry) says telling that "those who resemble, they assemble" and it's very true in here. It's however a great mistake the believe that KMT/Chinese reunification supporter are few and old。

but they are dangerous


If you believe in a independent, outside-of -greater-China, Taiwanese nation yes it is, or else...

undemocratic


Hooo, big words already. Where is the "undemocracy" to express what I think about what Taiwan (ROC) and Taiwanese (Chinese) are ? I never said that they all should accept that unconditionally, of course people must vote and choose their destiny.

PS1 : As I said, I'm french, sorry for my lame english
PS2 : My opinion doesnt change anything to my addiction to the island and it's people !
PS3 : KMT supporter ≠ worshiper
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Mucha Man » 22 Mar 2009, 22:17

Tortue wrote:...There is a Chinese (sorry) says telling that "those who resemble, they assemble" and it's very true in here. It's however a great mistake the believe that KMT/Chinese reunification supporter are few and old。


No, the opposite is true. However, if you want to contend otherwise then make a case. Polls are regularly taken on this matter. All, including those from NCCU, show support for unification (not reunification) to be a minority wish, just as they show a steady rise in a Taiwan-centred identity that is not oriented toward one party. You just don't seem aware just how fringe your ideas are.

Hooo, big words already. Where is the "undemocracy" to express what I think about what Taiwan (ROC) and Taiwanese (Chinese) are ? I never said that they all should accept that unconditionally, of course people must vote and choose their destiny.


You are free to say what you wish, including hoos and boos, but if you hope that the agenda of unelected officials supercedes the desire of voters then yes you are holding undemocratic ideas. If Taiwanese wished to unite with China I would not argue against it. But they do not. That the KMT won again last year has nothing to do with their goal of eventual unification since most voters did not see that as even a remote possibility and laugh out loud at the province of China designation. People are used to games here, can contend with being the nation that dare not speak its name, and tend to vote on economic issues. In any case, you might want to begin an analysis of modern Taiwan with an awareness of how local identity is growing and not by drawing conclusions from maps and flags and party names on a website.

There is a Taiwanese expression, far more important to know than the hoary Chinese one you threw out, that says blue on the outside, green on the inside.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

http://hikingintaiwan.blogspot.com/
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby fanglangzhe » 12 May 2012, 22:27

Ok, so why are foreigners in Taiwan so much more anti-KMT and pro DPP than the voting public in Taiwan at large? Whats it all about? Just remember one thing, you guys can't even vote in the elections.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby urodacus » 12 May 2012, 23:45

Yes, sure, but we're (generally) more intelligent and interested in the future.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Mucha Man » 12 May 2012, 23:53

fanglangzhe wrote:Ok, so why are foreigners in Taiwan so much more anti-KMT and pro DPP than the voting public in Taiwan at large? Whats it all about?


Because we are not held back by history, family traditions, ethnic solidarity, a propagandic education system (for everyone over 40), China and so on from looking at which party matches our values and is in our best interests to support.

The simple fact is that if China was not the force it is, the KMT would have been wiped out as a party long ago. Most Taiwanese don't much like them either you know. But when you have the richest party in the world holding a trump card over every election, the results are fairly predictable.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

http://hikingintaiwan.blogspot.com/
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Dog's_Breakfast » 13 May 2012, 08:14

urodacus wrote:Yes, sure, but we're (generally) more intelligent and interested in the future.


Arrogance of the worst sort - I do hope you were just joking. The majority of foreigners I meet here were losers in their own country, and came to Taiwan because they could get paid for having a white face (ie teaching English). Some of them are good at it (teaching), but many I've met are pretty clueless about that too - basically, they have no marketable skills and little ability to learn, but they sure think highly of themselves. It's true all over the world that those who boast the loudest of their supposed superiority are mostly insecure fucк-ups.

Of course, there are plenty of exceptions and I don't want to tar all foreigners with the same brush. Undoubtedly many capable people have come here to study Chinese or work in tech, and stayed because they like it or find it interesting, or just got married and see no good reason to return "home." And maybe they realize that "home" isn't necessarily "the greatest country on Earth."

Sorry if this is starting to sound like a rant, but really, I get tired of hearing from foreigners who think that "the old country" was just the greatest, filled with people of superior intelligence and sophistication, and wonder why the dumb Taiwanese don't model themselves on said country. This isn't to say that Taiwan is perfect and can't improve - every country I can think of could use some improvements - but we foreigners don't possess superior intelligence and skills, and are not the great fountain of wisdom. Our own countries are not in the best of shape either. It's perfectly legitimate for us to discuss and debate Taiwan's politics and how to organize this society - indeed, it's good fun - just not legitimate thinking that we are any better at it than the Taiwanese.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby urodacus » 13 May 2012, 08:41

Dog's_Breakfast wrote:
urodacus wrote:Yes, sure, but we're (generally) more intelligent and interested in the future.


Arrogance of the worst sort - I do hope you were just joking.

But tht's thebest kind of arrogance, DB!

And yes, I am joking. Of course we're not all smart. Mind you, some of us have also had the luxury of seeing China from a wider perspective and in a wider context than the average Taiwanese has, due to the sore shortcomings of their education system, especially with regards to the particularly warped views on history and idealogy as peddled in KMT era schools, and still perpetrated by the Sinophile press in Taiwan (95% of the press are risible self-censoring shits, especially Want Want, Next, TVBS and Apple who stand out in that area of excellence).


The majority of foreigners I meet here were losers in their own country, and came to Taiwan because they could get paid for having a white face (ie teaching English). Some of them are good at it (teaching), but many I've met are pretty clueless about that too - basically, they have no marketable skills and little ability to learn, but they sure think highly of themselves. It's true all over the world that those who boast the loudest of their supposed superiority are mostly insecure fucк-ups.

Of course, there are plenty of exceptions and I don't want to tar all foreigners with the same brush. Undoubtedly many capable people have come here to study Chinese or work in tech, and stayed because they like it or find it interesting, or just got married and see no good reason to return "home." And maybe they realize that "home" isn't necessarily "the greatest country on Earth."

Sorry if this is starting to sound like a rant, but really, I get tired of hearing from foreigners who think that "the old country" was just the greatest, filled with people of superior intelligence and sophistication, and wonder why the dumb Taiwanese don't model themselves on said country. This isn't to say that Taiwan is perfect and can't improve - every country I can think of could use some improvements - but we foreigners don't possess superior intelligence and skills, and are not the great fountain of wisdom. Our own countries are not in the best of shape either. It's perfectly legitimate for us to discuss and debate Taiwan's politics and how to organize this society, just not legitimate thinking that we are any better at it than the Taiwanese.


I am not and was not a loser in my own country. Thank you very much. Nor am I a loser in my new country, and nor was I a loser in Taiwan.

Nor am I making any claims that Australia is better than Taiwan. In many respects it's far worse. But it is clear as mud that Taiwan's political machine, its press, and its future prospects under the KMT are anathema to the free and sovereign aspirations of the majority in Taiwan, foreigners and locals alike. In many respects, the KMT are foreigners too, so perhaps I'll just leave them out of this equation, and tell them to fuck off back to China.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Mawvellous » 13 May 2012, 13:40

Why would anyone think the DPP are a more attractive option at the moment? The DPP factions are still too busy fighting each other, there is a leadership vacuum at the top, they can't agree on a China policy, they have taken some idiotic policy positions for short term populist gain, and they seem incapable of moving beyond the politics of street protest.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby urodacus » 13 May 2012, 14:04

Who"s supporting the DPP? We're just anti-KMT.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby fanglangzhe » 13 May 2012, 22:30

urodacus wrote:Who"s supporting the DPP? We're just anti-KMT.


So which Taiwan political party do you support? None? Btw, the idea that people who vote for KMT do so because they are ignorant or have been brain washed is pretty condescending and false. There are plenty of pro DPP media such as Liberty Times and a bunch of radio stations and TV stations. The argument that KMT dominates the Taiwan media to the extent that it can silence opposing views and brain wash everyone that votes for it is just not true.
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