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Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Topics related to Taiwan and Taiwan/China issues can be discussed here. Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, please send a report to the moderators so we can look into it
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Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, you can send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Taiwan: independence/reunification or...

Taiwan is a province of China, whose legitimate government is the PRC, and should reunify as soon as possible.
17
4%
Taiwan part of China, but the PRC are usurpers. The ROC should reconquer the Mainland.
17
4%
Taiwan should unify with China once China reforms to become a free democratic country.
24
6%
Taiwan should negotiate with China to have a close relationship, but with as many freedoms as can be agreed upon.
43
11%
Taiwan should seek to maintain the status quo as long as possible.
24
6%
Taiwan is effectively independent, but China prevents this from being formalised. Taiwan should try to slowly and carefully move towards de jure independence.
168
44%
Taiwan should declare independence now.
34
9%
Taiwan should bide its time until the circumstances allow for a referendum for Taiwanese to determine their future.
58
15%
 
Total votes : 385

Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby rowland » 18 Jan 2016, 22:40

BeachBoy wrote:On the MRT on my visit, I met a young lady in her early 20s. Her parents worked in finance. Her attitude was reunification was a financial win for the island. Talk about historical amnesia....


I've observed that people who work in finance tend to be very out of touch with reality. They think those numbers on the screen are the physical world, even when the numbers don't add up.
Big government is for those who can't handle freedom. Political correctness is for those who can't handle reality.

Gun-free zones are where the gun violence happens. Ban gun-free zones before many more get killed. Also, gun violence in Europe is as bad as in US, and getting worse.

The most bigoted people in the world insist that they are the most open-minded, the cruelest people in the world insist that they are the most compassionate, and the most illogical insist that they are the most logical.

Just because Al Gore says there's a planetary emergency doesn't mean there's a planetary emergency. And just because somebody says it's science doesn't mean it's science.
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Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby Zhengzhou2010 » 15 Mar 2016, 05:48

http://solidaritytw.tumblr.com/post/141 ... ure-survey

I'm surprised at the depth of Taiwanese self identification in the recent UDN poll. Taiwanese alone beats all other combined categories by more than 3x. And support for the status quo has fallen below 50% although still the largest plurality.
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Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby Zhengzhou2010 » 26 Jul 2016, 09:13

The DPP may have won the executive, legislative and municipal elections but it feels like the Blues won the ideological battle for the most part regarding Taiwan's status. Aside from not accepting the 92C, it doesn't seem that TIW has made any significant changes to Taiwan's position. She refers to herself as ROC President, and the nation as "ROC (Taiwan)", there are no changes to the name of national entities (except maybe OCAC), and she is defending ROC territorial claims in the S China Sea. There are no diplomatic fights, no changes to the Constitution, no new national language, no new flag, and no new national anthem. ROC heroes still are memorialized in national monuments and currency. While the Southbound Policy and Party Assets bill were Green priorities, they don't change the ROC itself.

While the KMT may still feel sullen from their electoral losses, they should take some comfort that the vast majority of their ideological agenda remains largely untouched. As a PRC pro-unificationist, I'm not necessarily overjoyed at the continuing vitality of ROC-ness, but I accept the democratic results in Taiwan. I guess the DPP ideological victory is really in the realm of "The ROC is Taiwan and Taiwan is the ROC." (which may be distasteful to Deep Greens, Deep Blues and Reds, but seems consistent with the Light Green/Light Blue majority).

Edit: OCAC's latest name change occurred in 2012 when the KMT held the legislature and executive office, so TIW seems to have changed even less than I thought.
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Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby hansioux » 26 Jul 2016, 09:59

Zhengzhou2010 wrote:The DPP may have won the executive, legislative and municipal elections but it feels like the Blues won the ideological battle for the most part regarding Taiwan's status. Aside from not accepting the 92C, it doesn't seem that TIW has made any significant changes to Taiwan's position. She refers to herself as ROC President, and the nation as "ROC (Taiwan)", there are no changes to the name of national entities (except maybe OCAC), and she is defending ROC territorial claims in the S China Sea. There are no diplomatic fights, no changes to the Constitution, no new national language, no new flag, and no new national anthem. ROC heroes still are memorialized in national monuments and currency. While the Southbound Policy and Party Assets bill were Green priorities, they don't change the ROC itself.

While the KMT may still feel sullen from their electoral losses, they should take some comfort that the vast majority of their ideological agenda remains largely untouched. As a PRC pro-unificationist, I'm not necessarily overjoyed at the continuing vitality of ROC-ness, but I accept the democratic results in Taiwan. I guess the DPP ideological victory is really in the realm of "The ROC is Taiwan and Taiwan is the ROC." (which may be distasteful to Deep Greens, Deep Blues and Reds, but seems consistent with the Light Green/Light Blue majority).

Edit: OCAC's latest name change occurred in 2012 when the KMT held the legislature and executive office, so TIW seems to have changed even less than I thought.


CSB also changed very little, but I think people were annoyed with CSB's administration changing names of the small things instead of getting things done. So TIW is going another route.

With the majority in the legislature, TIW will first require all illegal party assets be returned to the state and the people, and prevent illegal party assets in the future with the new legislation they are trying to pass. Without the massing amount of illegally acquired land and money, KMT won't be able to just sway voters and politicians with money.

TIW is also trying to get the Transitional Justice Bill to pass. That will require KMT to be accountable for its pass actions. CSB tried to accomplish that without a legislation, he had to because KMT had the legislature, and he failed. Hopefully TIW will get it done this time.

TIW's second piece to the transitional justice bill is the Aboriginal Transitional Justice Bill, which would hold early, late and new immigrants and all past colonial governments accountable for their wrong doing. Hopefully the bill will return traditional lands to the current aboriginals, recognize Pingpu descendants as aboriginals, and pave a path towards autonomous aboriginal zones, complete with governance to land and budget.
Don't confuse me with your reasonableness.
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Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby hsinhai78 » 26 Jul 2016, 13:27

hansioux wrote: TIW will first require all illegal party assets be returned to the state and the people, and prevent illegal party assets in the future with the new legislation they are trying to pass.


Let's see how that bill will hold up under scrutiny of the supreme court. Reversing the burden of proof and backdating legislation is not necessarily in line with the constitution (and not just the constitution of the ROC).

hansioux wrote: Without the massing amount of illegally acquired land and money, KMT won't be able to just sway voters and politicians with money.


Just how will you spin any future electoral KMT victory then? In the past it was always due to vote buying :roflmao:
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Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby hansioux » 26 Jul 2016, 13:31

hsinhai78 wrote:Just how will you spin any future electoral KMT victory then? In the past it was always due to vote buying :roflmao:


If the KMT wins without having to buy votes, then that's a pretty good deal for the KMT and the Taiwanese people as a whole.
Don't confuse me with your reasonableness.
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Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby Dirt » 28 Jul 2016, 00:12

Zhengzhou2010 wrote:The DPP may have won the executive, legislative and municipal elections but it feels like the Blues won the ideological battle for the most part regarding Taiwan's status. Aside from not accepting the 92C, it doesn't seem that TIW has made any significant changes to Taiwan's position. She refers to herself as ROC President, and the nation as "ROC (Taiwan)", there are no changes to the name of national entities (except maybe OCAC), and she is defending ROC territorial claims in the S China Sea. There are no diplomatic fights, no changes to the Constitution, no new national language, no new flag, and no new national anthem. ROC heroes still are memorialized in national monuments and currency. While the Southbound Policy and Party Assets bill were Green priorities, they don't change the ROC itself.

While the KMT may still feel sullen from their electoral losses, they should take some comfort that the vast majority of their ideological agenda remains largely untouched. As a PRC pro-unificationist, I'm not necessarily overjoyed at the continuing vitality of ROC-ness, but I accept the democratic results in Taiwan. I guess the DPP ideological victory is really in the realm of "The ROC is Taiwan and Taiwan is the ROC." (which may be distasteful to Deep Greens, Deep Blues and Reds, but seems consistent with the Light Green/Light Blue majority).

Edit: OCAC's latest name change occurred in 2012 when the KMT held the legislature and executive office, so TIW seems to have changed even less than I thought.


Many DPP moderates have always seen Taiwan = ROC. While KMT folk see the ROC as ruling Taiwan Province. Chen Shui-bian was an extremist, political panderer; a nativist, isolationist and protectionist. Not much different than what we see in Donald Trump and his comments about Mexicans, Muslims, etc. Trump is all about white nationalism while people like Chen Shui-bian was about Hoklo nationalism. It is, IMO, unhealthy politics.
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Re: Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

Postby Zhengzhou2010 » 28 Jul 2016, 05:42

Dirt-

I've heard many accuse CSB and the DPP more broadly of Hoklo nationalism/chauvinism but am unclear of the specifics. Did he try to make Hoklo the Guoyu rather than Mandarin or implement rules punishing kids for speaking non-Hoklo languages? Did he try to make all persons identify as Hoklo and pledge allegiance to the Hoklo Republic? Did he pass laws ensuring that non-Hoklo would be drastically underrepresented in the legislature and leaving other Taiwanese with only a pittance of seats that drastically underrepresented their population percentages?

I can agree that nationalism and chauvinism are dangerous. But what then makes Chinese Nationalism and the KMT's WSR Chauvinism any better? My sense, honestly, is that most charges of Hoklo nationalism are really expressions of dismay over the perceived replacement of WSR Chauvinism. This is doubly ironic when one considers that although Hoklo are 70% of Taiwan's population, there has been a Hoklo president for only 8 of 67 years since 1949 (8 of 121 since 1895) and Hoklo language is fast diminishing, it is hard to not conclude that Hoklo nationalism has been pretty ineffective.
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