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Conspiracy discussion about 2004 Chen Shui-bian shooting

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Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, you can send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Re: Conspiracy discussion about 2004 Chen Shui-bian shooting

Postby Mucha Man » 16 Feb 2012, 19:48

Charlie Jack wrote:
the bear wrote:Nice work Charlie. :thumbsup:


Thanks.


Indeed. :thumbsup:
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

http://hikingintaiwan.blogspot.com/
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Re: Conspiracy discussion about 2004 Chen Shui-bian shooting

Postby Betelnut » 19 Feb 2012, 01:10

Typical green mentality. Using the beginning years where the KMT was involved in a civil war with an internal enemy supported by foreign powers to generalize 50 years of rule under the KMT.

If the green talked about 50 years of history, they would only talk about the first few years because those are the years that benefit their argument without talking about why things were like that in the first place.

All accomplishments and reorganization of the island do not count because of the beginning years that everyone acknowledges as being very badly governed during a period of war. Does anyone talk about how Japan badly governed Taiwan from 1940-1945 by stripping the island of resources and taking gold from the common people? They seem to be given a pass because it was the mighty U.S. that was beating down Japan in the Pacific.

Do green people have anything interesting or new to say besides repeating the first few years of KMT provincial rule?

Never mind the infrastructure projects laid down by both CKS and CCK after 1950 and the economic miracle, etc. I don't think that bears repeating because you'll find it in an KMT sponsored guidebook to Taiwan, but you guys want to use the events leading up to 228 to generalize 50 years of KMT rule.

This is just another example of simple answers to complex situations. That's all the green do within their families and friends. Just make things really simple. Things were bad because those people are bad. Never mind pointing out how circumstances can make people (any people) behave in certain ways.

Were things like how Kerr described during the CCK or even under the CKS period once things were stabilized? Were they making messes or building highways, hospitals, power grids, and schools? Good lord, this is a tough crowd here on Forumosa.

Why don't they just hand out Formosa Betrayed and the Soong Dynasty at the airport for all foreigners to read and tell them not to read anything else or to talk to anyone about other sides to the story?

This post was recommended by TainanCowboy (19 Feb 2012, 17:01)
Rating: 4%
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Re: Conspiracy discussion about 2004 Chen Shui-bian shooting

Postby Betelnut » 19 Feb 2012, 01:20

If we go back to your post about what started this "what did the KMT do to the island discussion", I was responding to your post under the assumption that you did not arrive here from 1945-1947. That's why I was a bit confused by what you were talking about in terms of the "mess"?

If you mean the mess of trash you can find in parks and streets that people leave, then I would agree with you, but in general if you arrived here in the last 20 years or so, it's a fairly modern place with electricity and plumbing.

Muzha Man wrote:
Betelnut wrote:...Try to understand what is going on in history from all sides instead of just interpreting everything as negative because it fits your original conclusion.


Oh please. You are being a partisan apologist, not open minded.

And you'll find that most of us came here with very little knowledge of the KMT and Taiwan's history grew to despise them only after much reading and observation. Frankly, how anyone can look at the mess they made of one of the earth's most beautiful places and not be outraged is beyond me?

The Nanjing government did not condone what the Chen Yi government was doing. CKS did not support corruption in provincial governments. It's a very simple matter of a population trying to overthrow a provincial government in one of the provinces controlled by the ROC and the central government sending in troops to suppress the uprising. The central government did not push back to support a corrupt provincial government. It pushed back to retain control of one of their provinces which is perfectly in their right to do so as it is with any province on the mainland.


Nothing in the historical record supports such a lopsided and pro-KMT interpretation of events and characters. This is just stale propaganda.
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Re: Conspiracy discussion about 2004 Chen Shui-bian shooting

Postby Mucha Man » 19 Feb 2012, 01:27

Yawn. You set up a discussion on 228 and then when your tendentious reading was squashed, you pretend that our points were originally acknowledged by you (known by all) so you can attempt to shift goalposts.

You have been shown to be a serial misreader of history, a flat out apologist for past crimes, and to possess a dubious integrity when it comes to arguing. I see no point in discussing this matter with you further.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

http://hikingintaiwan.blogspot.com/
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Re: Conspiracy discussion about 2004 Chen Shui-bian shooting

Postby Betelnut » 06 Mar 2012, 02:14

I gave details of what happened in 228 and discussed both sides of the story. That is not being squashed.

What happened was after I pointed out what led CKS to send troops from Nanjing because of the demands of the committee to hold on to weapons they had taken from government institutions, I was told I was going to burn in hell.

If you guys want to discuss details, then we can do so, but to say that my "arguments" were squashed is a little silly.

After that I got to hear about how terrible the KMT treated Taiwan (with its economic miracle and all) based on detailed events from George Kerr's 228 book which should be the only book read ever about Taiwan apparently. An apologist for past crimes? Crimes are crimes, and I don't sit here and defend past crimes. However, I am pointing out that past crimes are not the actual issue. It's just about using past crimes or alleged past crimes as reasons to usurp power from the '49 mainlander group.

I don't think that the KMT should be given a free pass for any wrong doings in the past to any of the mainlander population or the Taiwanese population. For example, I think it's good that the government researched and paid families of dead and missing people from 228. What's ironic about that effort is that when the number of victims didn't exceed 1,000, the numbers were hushed because it wasn't 20,000 or 30,000.

This shows that it's not about those victims. It's only about using 228 victims as a weapon to attack to... usurp power. Added to that, we have some of these same people saying the Nanjing massacre didn't happen when there is documentary footage of it on TV for the entire world to see... Can we say agenda here?

I'm not saying the green foreigner crowd here denies that Nanjing massacre, but I am pointing out that this is not about past wrong-doings of a political entity. It's just about gaining control of mainland China's former central government known as the ROC.

Distorting history and being apologist would trying to make bad things seem not bad when they were bad. Putting things into context does not necessarily mean that one is being an apologist. It just helps puts things into perspective because life is not that black and white under extremely difficult circumstances.

For example, one could be an apologist for the Chen Shui-Bian family and its government. They didn't take enough money from 2000-2004, so the first lady insisted that Chen stay in office so they wouldn't have to face prosecution and return money to the government. Therefore, cheating in the 2004 presidential election either through a fake assassination and/or election fraud is justified because anyone would lie and cheat to keep themselves out of jail right?

Therefore, the CSB family and government had the right to strip the right of the people to choose their president and ruling party by using the Central Election Commission and local DPP county and city heads to rig the 2004 presidential election because Chen and Wu wanted to stay of out of jail and Lien and Soong already had their lunch already. Everyone needs to eat right??
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Re: Conspiracy discussion about 2004 Chen Shui-bian shooting

Postby Fox » 06 Mar 2012, 05:02

The "Peace Preservation Corps" arriving in September had promptly commandeered all of Taipei's garbage trucks, for example, and by late November those that were still able to move were carrying loot to the ports.


And they didn't give them back until CSB was Mayor of Taipei in 1996.

Very interesting post Charlie.
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