Taiwan is Not Part of China

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Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, you can send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Isha » 12 Apr 2012, 11:32

finley wrote:I believe the latest Chinese designs have the now-standard guidance systems that allow pinpoint delivery to target. .


I remember China announced unofficially few years back that it has guiding system missiles and could target any US city if needed. It was during the tension time between China-Taiwan-US. I am sure now they do have the system in place. Their navy ships are pretty impressive too. You are right, of course China doesn't need missiles for Taiwan.
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Mawvellous » 22 Apr 2012, 11:39

urodacus wrote:
TaipeiDawg wrote:In the past, the KMT would only say that it and China are entitled to different interpretations of 'One China' but the KMT would never clearly elaborate on what its definition was. But now, apparently they are comfortable enough with the situation to elaborate on their definition - that it consists of the Mainland and Taiwan areas. But the ROC constitution has said as much all along.



And would that be the ROC constitution that was rewritten after the fact that the KMT lost China and set up a supposed government in exile in Taiwan, which was at the time little more than a US military protectorate returned from Japan but not actually given to China, and garrisoned by the Chinese (KMT) army?

Slight sticking point there.


In fact, the constitution was adopted on December 25 1946 and went into effect on December 25 1947 in mainland China. The ROC didn't move its temporary capital to Taiwan until 1949. The constitution then wasn't amended until 1991.
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Hartzell » 24 Apr 2012, 20:07

Mawvellous wrote:In fact, the constitution was adopted on December 25 1946 and went into effect on December 25 1947 in mainland China. The ROC didn't move its temporary capital to Taiwan until 1949. The constitution then wasn't amended until 1991.

Amended yes . . . . . but what happened to the Resolution of the National Assembly?? That would be necessary to make Taiwan a part of the ROC national territory.

To elaborate on this, I must point out that Article 4 of the ROC Constitution specifies that "The territory of the Republic of China within its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by a resolution of the National Assembly." However, in regard to Taiwan having somehow become part of ROC national territory, there is no resolution of the National Assembly on record. (The rough drafts of earlier versions of the ROC Constitution are still available, and they specifically failed to include "Taiwan" in the scope of Chinese national territory, while the other provinces were listed, see -- http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94 ... 2%E8%8D%89 .)

Moreover, international law specifies that "military occupation does not transfer sovereignty." The proclamation of "Taiwan Retrocession Day" on Oct. 25, 1945, thus indicating a clear intention and objective to annex Taiwan territory, is a war crime.

President Truman's remarks on Taiwan's undetermined status in June 1950 certainly show that there was no recognition of any so-called "Taiwan Retrocession Day."

More specifically, the Allies certainly did not recognize the extension of Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan at any time during the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s . . . . . or any other period.
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby ceevee369 » 24 Apr 2012, 20:19

Confirmed. Taiwan is NOT part of China in the eyes of Hotel staff in Guangzhou.

When my wife gave here TW passport upon check-in, they waved it away. (While giving her the eye)
They preferred the Hong Kong Visa booklet :loco:
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Isha » 24 Apr 2012, 21:45

ceevee369 wrote:Confirmed. Taiwan is NOT part of China in the eyes of Hotel staff in Guangzhou.

When my wife gave here TW passport upon check-in, they waved it away. (While giving her the eye)
They preferred the Hong Kong Visa booklet :loco:


Another explanation: they do not accept taiwan passport as a valid document considering it is not a country but a province of China!
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Baas Babelaas » 25 Apr 2012, 15:44

a province of China!


:roflmao:

You're kidding, right?
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby TaipeiDawg » 25 Apr 2012, 16:56

Isha wrote:
ceevee369 wrote:Confirmed. Taiwan is NOT part of China in the eyes of Hotel staff in Guangzhou.
When my wife gave here TW passport upon check-in, they waved it away. (While giving her the eye)
They preferred the Hong Kong Visa booklet :loco:

Another explanation: they do not accept taiwan passport as a valid document considering it is not a country but a province of China!
I bet they accept Taiwan Dollars as valid paperwork......
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby fanglangzhe » 27 Apr 2012, 21:52

Charlie Jack wrote:I agree, but I would add that there are also those who seem to think of independence as an outdated DPP fantasy.


I thought independence was a DPP fantasy, no? As in reunification is a historical inevitability?
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » 28 May 2012, 06:50

Hartzell wrote:
Mawvellous wrote:In fact, the constitution was adopted on December 25 1946 and went into effect on December 25 1947 in mainland China. The ROC didn't move its temporary capital to Taiwan until 1949. The constitution then wasn't amended until 1991.

Amended yes . . . . . but what happened to the Resolution of the National Assembly?? That would be necessary to make Taiwan a part of the ROC national territory.

To elaborate on this, I must point out that Article 4 of the ROC Constitution specifies that "The territory of the Republic of China within its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by a resolution of the National Assembly." However, in regard to Taiwan having somehow become part of ROC national territory, there is no resolution of the National Assembly on record. (The rough drafts of earlier versions of the ROC Constitution are still available, and they specifically failed to include "Taiwan" in the scope of Chinese national territory, while the other provinces were listed, see -- http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94 ... 2%E8%8D%89 .)

Moreover, international law specifies that "military occupation does not transfer sovereignty." The proclamation of "Taiwan Retrocession Day" on Oct. 25, 1945, thus indicating a clear intention and objective to annex Taiwan territory, is a war crime.

President Truman's remarks on Taiwan's undetermined status in June 1950 certainly show that there was no recognition of any so-called "Taiwan Retrocession Day."

More specifically, the Allies certainly did not recognize the extension of Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan at any time during the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s . . . . . or any other period.



The problem with your point about the territory listed in the drafts of the ROC consitution is, the list was NEVER meant to be exhaustive; if you can read Mandarin Chinese, you will notice that the territorial list was ended with 'etc.'. So, theoretically, it did not exclude Taiwan. Of course, at that time, Taiwan was Japanese territory. So let us assume, to the benefit of those anti-KMTers, that it was unconstitutional on the part of the ROC to include Taiwan in its territory at that time.

However, a meeting was convened in December 1946 to CREATE a new constitution, not simply amend any previous one. It was called 制憲國民大會 (literally, "constitution-creating national assembly"). During that time, Taiwan did send a number of representatives to Nanjing, China through local elections. So, it is hard to deny that Taiwan is in the ROC constitution of 1946. In other words, the inclusion of Taiwan in Chinese territory was unconstitutional, only as far as the pre-1946 constitution is concerned. However, since the new constitution was adopted, the cause of unconstitutionality was eliminated. What's more, the additional clauses of the constitution of 1991 clearly treat Taiwan as a province. That makes Taiwan a province of China in terms of the ROC constitution.

As far as international law is concerned, it is true that the peace treaty with Japan signed at San Francisco indeed did not specify the recipient of Taiwan, when Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and Penghu. However, the treaty of Taipei specified that all people on Taiwan would become ROC nationals. If the Taiwanese people are ROC nationals, it follows that they have to obey the ROC laws and administrative and executive orders. Since Taiwan has been officially regarded as part of the territory by the ROC, the Taiwanese people in the capacity of ROC nationals have to regard Taiwan as part of the ROC as well. Thus, the undetermined status of Taiwan has been solved. In other words, although Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan, it returned Taiwan to the ROC in a rather indirect manner, through the treaty of Taipei.


In this connection, it is interesting to consider a passage in International Law authored by Malcom N. Shaw (2003).
Consider p. 211 in particular.

... In 1979 the US recognised the People's Republic of China as the sole and legitimate government of China.178 Accordingly, Taiwan would appear to be a non-state territorial entity which is capable of acting independently on the international scene, but is most probably de jure part of China...

Also, it should be mentioned that the UN yearbooks have long listed Taiwan as "Taiwan province of China". Since it is unlikely that the UN itself violates international law, I am forced to conclude, following Prof. Shaw, that Taiwan is most probably de jure part of China.
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Hamletintaiwan » 28 May 2012, 09:13

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:

The problem with your point about the territory listed in the drafts of the ROC consitution is, the list was NEVER meant to be exhaustive; moreover, if you can read Mandarin Chinese, you will notice that the territorial list was ended with 'etc.'. So, theoretically, it did not exclude Taiwan. Of course, at that time, Taiwan was Japanese territory. So let us assume, to the benefit of those anti-KMTers, that it was unconstitutional on the part of the ROC to include Taiwan in its territory at that time.

However, a meeting was convened in December 1946 to CREATE a new constitution, not simply amend any previous one. It was called 制憲國民大會 (literally, "constitution-creating national assembly"). During that time, Taiwan did send a number of representatives to Nanjing, China through local elections. So, it is hard to deny that Taiwan is in the ROC constitution of 1946. In other words, the inclusion of Taiwan in Chinese territory was unconstitutional, only as far as the pre-1946 constitution is concerned. However, since the new constitution was adopted, the cause of unconstitutionality was eliminated. What's more, the 1991 amendments of the constitution clearly treat Taiwan as a province. That makes Taiwan a province of China in terms of the ROC constitution.

As far as international law is concerned, it is true that the peace treaty with Japan signed at San Francisco indeed did not specify the recipient of Taiwan, when Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and Penghu. However, the treaty of Taipei specified that all people on Taiwan would become ROC nationals. If the Taiwanese people are ROC nationals, it follows that they have to obey the ROC laws and administrative and executive orders. Since Taiwan has been officially regarded as part of the territory by the ROC, the Taiwanese people in the capacity of ROC nationals have to regard Taiwan as part of the ROC as well. Thus, the undetermined status of Taiwan has been solved. In other words, although Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan, it returned Taiwan to the ROC in a rather indirect manner, through the treaty of Taipei.


In this connection, it is interesting to consider a passage in International Law authored by Malcom N. Shaw (2003).
Consider p. 211 in particular.

... In 1979 the US recognised the People's Republic of China as the sole and legitimate government of China.178 Accordingly, Taiwan would appear to be a non-state territorial entity which is capable of acting independently on the international scene, but is most probably de jure part of China...

Also, it should be mentioned that the UN yearbooks have long listed Taiwan as "Taiwan province of China". Since it is unlikely that the UN itself violates international law, I am forced to conclude, following Prof. Shaw, that Taiwan is most probably de jure part of China.


Why didn't they simply asked the people living on the island what they want to be?
I keep reading the UN, Japanese,the KMT and China, but, not at any point, they asked the inhabitants of that territory/whatever.
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