Taiwan is Not Part of China

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Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, you can send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » 28 May 2012, 10:06

Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:

The problem with your point about the territory listed in the drafts of the ROC consitution is, the list was NEVER meant to be exhaustive; moreover, if you can read Mandarin Chinese, you will notice that the territorial list was ended with 'etc.'. So, theoretically, it did not exclude Taiwan. Of course, at that time, Taiwan was Japanese territory. So let us assume, to the benefit of those anti-KMTers, that it was unconstitutional on the part of the ROC to include Taiwan in its territory at that time.

However, a meeting was convened in December 1946 to CREATE a new constitution, not simply amend any previous one. It was called 制憲國民大會 (literally, "constitution-creating national assembly"). During that time, Taiwan did send a number of representatives to Nanjing, China through local elections. So, it is hard to deny that Taiwan is in the ROC constitution of 1946. In other words, the inclusion of Taiwan in Chinese territory was unconstitutional, only as far as the pre-1946 constitution is concerned. However, since the new constitution was adopted, the cause of unconstitutionality was eliminated. What's more, the 1991 amendments of the constitution clearly treat Taiwan as a province. That makes Taiwan a province of China in terms of the ROC constitution.

As far as international law is concerned, it is true that the peace treaty with Japan signed at San Francisco indeed did not specify the recipient of Taiwan, when Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and Penghu. However, the treaty of Taipei specified that all people on Taiwan would become ROC nationals. If the Taiwanese people are ROC nationals, it follows that they have to obey the ROC laws and administrative and executive orders. Since Taiwan has been officially regarded as part of the territory by the ROC, the Taiwanese people in the capacity of ROC nationals have to regard Taiwan as part of the ROC as well. Thus, the undetermined status of Taiwan has been solved. In other words, although Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan, it returned Taiwan to the ROC in a rather indirect manner, through the treaty of Taipei.


In this connection, it is interesting to consider a passage in International Law authored by Malcom N. Shaw (2003).
Consider p. 211 in particular.

... In 1979 the US recognised the People's Republic of China as the sole and legitimate government of China.178 Accordingly, Taiwan would appear to be a non-state territorial entity which is capable of acting independently on the international scene, but is most probably de jure part of China...

Also, it should be mentioned that the UN yearbooks have long listed Taiwan as "Taiwan province of China". Since it is unlikely that the UN itself violates international law, I am forced to conclude, following Prof. Shaw, that Taiwan is most probably de jure part of China.


Why didn't they simply asked the people living on the island what they want to be?
I keep reading the UN, Japanese,the KMT and China, but, not at any point, they asked the inhabitants of that territory/whatever.


The Taiwanese people actually welcomed the KMT army and government when they first arrived on the island in 1945. They also actively cooperated with the KMT in adminstration and elections. The first legislative meeting in China had Taiwanese legislators, FYI. This can be considered an act of self-determination on the part of the Taiwanese people, and thus constitutes legal grounds for China's claim over Taiwan. After all, most Taiwanese people are ethnic Chinese, so they were eager to see Taiwan become part of China at that time, at least until they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption.

Although few Taiwanese people call themselves Zhongguoren (Chinese in the political sense) nowadays, it wasn't the case a mere decade ago.
However, the embarrassing fact is, the Taiwanese people have never denied the ROC system; instead, they have embraced the ROC constitution, which treats Taiwan as part of China, through elections and other democratic measures. If the Taiwanese people themselves don't want to change, why should they expect others to treat Taiwan as a sovereign state?
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Hamletintaiwan » 28 May 2012, 11:09

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
The Taiwanese people actually welcomed the KMT army and government when they first arrived on the island in 1945. They also actively cooperated with the KMT in adminstration and elections. The first legislative meeting in China had Taiwanese legislators, FYI. This can be considered an act of self-determination on the part of the Taiwanese people, and thus constitutes legal grounds for China's claim over Taiwan. After all, most Taiwanese people are ethnic Chinese, so they were eager to see Taiwan become part of China at that time, at least until they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption.

Although few Taiwanese people call themselves Zhongguoren (Chinese in the political sense) nowadays, it wasn't the case a mere decade ago.
However, the embarrassing fact is, the Taiwanese people have never denied the ROC system; instead, they have embraced the ROC constitution, which treats Taiwan as part of China, through elections and other democratic measures. If the Taiwanese people themselves don't want to change, why should they expect others to treat Taiwan as a sovereign state?


Sorry dude, but the 228 incident/Massacre in 1947 contradicts pretty much your claims of Taiwanese people welcoming anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident
Easiest way to solve this issue still would be simply asking the people of Taiwan and let them vote.
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » 28 May 2012, 11:17

Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:

The problem with your point about the territory listed in the drafts of the ROC consitution is, the list was NEVER meant to be exhaustive; moreover, if you can read Mandarin Chinese, you will notice that the territorial list was ended with 'etc.'. So, theoretically, it did not exclude Taiwan. Of course, at that time, Taiwan was Japanese territory. So let us assume, to the benefit of those anti-KMTers, that it was unconstitutional on the part of the ROC to include Taiwan in its territory at that time.

However, a meeting was convened in December 1946 to CREATE a new constitution, not simply amend any previous one. It was called 制憲國民大會 (literally, "constitution-creating national assembly"). During that time, Taiwan did send a number of representatives to Nanjing, China through local elections. So, it is hard to deny that Taiwan is in the ROC constitution of 1946. In other words, the inclusion of Taiwan in Chinese territory was unconstitutional, only as far as the pre-1946 constitution is concerned. However, since the new constitution was adopted, the cause of unconstitutionality was eliminated. What's more, the 1991 amendments of the constitution clearly treat Taiwan as a province. That makes Taiwan a province of China in terms of the ROC constitution.

As far as international law is concerned, it is true that the peace treaty with Japan signed at San Francisco indeed did not specify the recipient of Taiwan, when Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and Penghu. However, the treaty of Taipei specified that all people on Taiwan would become ROC nationals. If the Taiwanese people are ROC nationals, it follows that they have to obey the ROC laws and administrative and executive orders. Since Taiwan has been officially regarded as part of the territory by the ROC, the Taiwanese people in the capacity of ROC nationals have to regard Taiwan as part of the ROC as well. Thus, the undetermined status of Taiwan has been solved. In other words, although Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan, it returned Taiwan to the ROC in a rather indirect manner, through the treaty of Taipei.


In this connection, it is interesting to consider a passage in International Law authored by Malcom N. Shaw (2003).
Consider p. 211 in particular.

... In 1979 the US recognised the People's Republic of China as the sole and legitimate government of China.178 Accordingly, Taiwan would appear to be a non-state territorial entity which is capable of acting independently on the international scene, but is most probably de jure part of China...

Also, it should be mentioned that the UN yearbooks have long listed Taiwan as "Taiwan province of China". Since it is unlikely that the UN itself violates international law, I am forced to conclude, following Prof. Shaw, that Taiwan is most probably de jure part of China.


Why didn't they simply asked the people living on the island what they want to be?
I keep reading the UN, Japanese,the KMT and China, but, not at any point, they asked the inhabitants of that territory/whatever.


The Taiwanese people actually welcomed the KMT army and government when they first arrived on the island in 1945. They also actively cooperated with the KMT in adminstration and elections. The first legislative meeting in China had Taiwanese legislators, FYI. This can be considered an act of self-determination on the part of the Taiwanese people, and thus constitutes legal grounds for China's claim over Taiwan. After all, most Taiwanese people are ethnic Chinese, so they were eager to see Taiwan become part of China at that time, at least until they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption.

Although few Taiwanese people call themselves Zhongguoren (Chinese in the political sense) nowadays, it wasn't the case a mere decade ago.
However, the embarrassing fact is, the Taiwanese people have never denied the ROC system; instead, they have embraced the ROC constitution, which treats Taiwan as part of China, through elections and other democratic measures. If the Taiwanese people themselves don't want to change, why should they expect others to treat Taiwan as a sovereign state?


Sorry dude, but the 228 incident/Massacre in 1947 contradicts pretty much your claims of Taiwanese people welcoming anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident


Easiest way to solve this issue still would be simply asking the people of Taiwan and let them vote.





Didn't you see that I wrote 'at least UNTIL they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption"?

On Wikpedia, it is stated that "...although the Kuomintang (KMT) liberation troops were initially WELCOMED by local inhabitants..."(emphasis added)
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Hamletintaiwan » 28 May 2012, 11:25

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
The Taiwanese people actually welcomed the KMT army and government when they first arrived on the island in 1945. They also actively cooperated with the KMT in adminstration and elections. The first legislative meeting in China had Taiwanese legislators, FYI. This can be considered an act of self-determination on the part of the Taiwanese people, and thus constitutes legal grounds for China's claim over Taiwan. After all, most Taiwanese people are ethnic Chinese, so they were eager to see Taiwan become part of China at that time, at least until they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption.

Although few Taiwanese people call themselves Zhongguoren (Chinese in the political sense) nowadays, it wasn't the case a mere decade ago.
However, the embarrassing fact is, the Taiwanese people have never denied the ROC system; instead, they have embraced the ROC constitution, which treats Taiwan as part of China, through elections and other democratic measures. If the Taiwanese people themselves don't want to change, why should they expect others to treat Taiwan as a sovereign state?


Sorry dude, but the 228 incident/Massacre in 1947 contradicts pretty much your claims of Taiwanese people welcoming anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident


raymondaliasapollyon wrote Didn't you see that I wrote 'at least UNTIL they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption"?


Easiest way to solve this issue still would be simply asking the people of Taiwan and let them vote.[/quote]



So you mean by sneaking this in there as a side sentence makes your argument all valid.

number of deaths vary from 10,000 to 30,000 or more
This is what I call a major resistance not just some extremist hippies. After 2 years only.
Your type of argumentation sounds very familiar to me. I kind of know what corner that is coming from already.

You are making claims based on what people said during a totalitarian regime. And you ignore that despite this up to 30000 people had the guts and spoke up paying with their lives.
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » 28 May 2012, 11:30

Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:

The problem with your point about the territory listed in the drafts of the ROC consitution is, the list was NEVER meant to be exhaustive; moreover, if you can read Mandarin Chinese, you will notice that the territorial list was ended with 'etc.'. So, theoretically, it did not exclude Taiwan. Of course, at that time, Taiwan was Japanese territory. So let us assume, to the benefit of those anti-KMTers, that it was unconstitutional on the part of the ROC to include Taiwan in its territory at that time.

However, a meeting was convened in December 1946 to CREATE a new constitution, not simply amend any previous one. It was called 制憲國民大會 (literally, "constitution-creating national assembly"). During that time, Taiwan did send a number of representatives to Nanjing, China through local elections. So, it is hard to deny that Taiwan is in the ROC constitution of 1946. In other words, the inclusion of Taiwan in Chinese territory was unconstitutional, only as far as the pre-1946 constitution is concerned. However, since the new constitution was adopted, the cause of unconstitutionality was eliminated. What's more, the 1991 amendments of the constitution clearly treat Taiwan as a province. That makes Taiwan a province of China in terms of the ROC constitution.

As far as international law is concerned, it is true that the peace treaty with Japan signed at San Francisco indeed did not specify the recipient of Taiwan, when Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and Penghu. However, the treaty of Taipei specified that all people on Taiwan would become ROC nationals. If the Taiwanese people are ROC nationals, it follows that they have to obey the ROC laws and administrative and executive orders. Since Taiwan has been officially regarded as part of the territory by the ROC, the Taiwanese people in the capacity of ROC nationals have to regard Taiwan as part of the ROC as well. Thus, the undetermined status of Taiwan has been solved. In other words, although Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan, it returned Taiwan to the ROC in a rather indirect manner, through the treaty of Taipei.


In this connection, it is interesting to consider a passage in International Law authored by Malcom N. Shaw (2003).
Consider p. 211 in particular.

... In 1979 the US recognised the People's Republic of China as the sole and legitimate government of China.178 Accordingly, Taiwan would appear to be a non-state territorial entity which is capable of acting independently on the international scene, but is most probably de jure part of China...

Also, it should be mentioned that the UN yearbooks have long listed Taiwan as "Taiwan province of China". Since it is unlikely that the UN itself violates international law, I am forced to conclude, following Prof. Shaw, that Taiwan is most probably de jure part of China.


Why didn't they simply asked the people living on the island what they want to be?
I keep reading the UN, Japanese,the KMT and China, but, not at any point, they asked the inhabitants of that territory/whatever.


The Taiwanese people actually welcomed the KMT army and government when they first arrived on the island in 1945. They also actively cooperated with the KMT in adminstration and elections. The first legislative meeting in China had Taiwanese legislators, FYI. This can be considered an act of self-determination on the part of the Taiwanese people, and thus constitutes legal grounds for China's claim over Taiwan. After all, most Taiwanese people are ethnic Chinese, so they were eager to see Taiwan become part of China at that time, at least until they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption.

Although few Taiwanese people call themselves Zhongguoren (Chinese in the political sense) nowadays, it wasn't the case a mere decade ago.
However, the embarrassing fact is, the Taiwanese people have never denied the ROC system; instead, they have embraced the ROC constitution, which treats Taiwan as part of China, through elections and other democratic measures. If the Taiwanese people themselves don't want to change, why should they expect others to treat Taiwan as a sovereign state?


Sorry dude, but the 228 incident/Massacre in 1947 contradicts pretty much your claims of Taiwanese people welcoming anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident


raymondaliasapollyon wrote Didn't you see that I wrote 'at least UNTIL they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption"?


Easiest way to solve this issue still would be simply asking the people of Taiwan and let them vote.




So you mean by sneaking this in there as a side sentence makes your argument all valid.

number of deaths vary from 10,000 to 30,000 or more
This is what I call a major resistance not just some extremist hippies. After 2 years only.
Your type of argumentation sounds very familiar to me. I kind of know what corner that is coming from already.



Sneaking in? I don't understand what you're talking about. I believe it is a fault on your part to ignore that crucial statement in my comment.
About the dealth toll of the incident, there is some controversy. A recent study by a researcher at the Academic Sinica claimed that the number is actually less than one thousand, as those who claimed compensation number rough 800 something. It should also be noted that the people killed included not only Taiwanese, but also waishengren killed by some Taiwanese mob.

Btw, have you looked at the Wikipedia entry closely? Seen "INITIALLY WELCOMED"?
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Hamletintaiwan » 28 May 2012, 11:41

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:

Sneaking in? I don't understand what you're talking about. I believe it is a fault on your part to ignore that crucial statement in my comment.
About the dealth toll of the incident, there is some controversy. A recent study by a researcher at the Academic Sinica claimed that the number is actually less than one thousand, as those who claimed compensation number rough 800 something. It should also be noted that the people killed included not only Taiwanese, but also waishengren killed by some Taiwanese mob.

Btw, have you looked at the Wikipedia entry closely? Seen "INITIALLY WELCOMED"?


Now you want to argue numbers of dead people? Are you serious?
If it were more than two it wasn't an accident. More than 3 definitely qualifies for a massacre.

If you are so sure about this why wouldn't you just let the people vote instead of bringing up ridiculous arguments?

Anyway I am out of here.
This is not China with 1.200 000 000 people this is Taiwan wit only 23 000 000 people where 800 human lives still count.
At least I hope so.
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » 28 May 2012, 11:48

Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
Hamletintaiwan wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:

The problem with your point about the territory listed in the drafts of the ROC consitution is, the list was NEVER meant to be exhaustive; moreover, if you can read Mandarin Chinese, you will notice that the territorial list was ended with 'etc.'. So, theoretically, it did not exclude Taiwan. Of course, at that time, Taiwan was Japanese territory. So let us assume, to the benefit of those anti-KMTers, that it was unconstitutional on the part of the ROC to include Taiwan in its territory at that time.

However, a meeting was convened in December 1946 to CREATE a new constitution, not simply amend any previous one. It was called 制憲國民大會 (literally, "constitution-creating national assembly"). During that time, Taiwan did send a number of representatives to Nanjing, China through local elections. So, it is hard to deny that Taiwan is in the ROC constitution of 1946. In other words, the inclusion of Taiwan in Chinese territory was unconstitutional, only as far as the pre-1946 constitution is concerned. However, since the new constitution was adopted, the cause of unconstitutionality was eliminated. What's more, the 1991 amendments of the constitution clearly treat Taiwan as a province. That makes Taiwan a province of China in terms of the ROC constitution.

As far as international law is concerned, it is true that the peace treaty with Japan signed at San Francisco indeed did not specify the recipient of Taiwan, when Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and Penghu. However, the treaty of Taipei specified that all people on Taiwan would become ROC nationals. If the Taiwanese people are ROC nationals, it follows that they have to obey the ROC laws and administrative and executive orders. Since Taiwan has been officially regarded as part of the territory by the ROC, the Taiwanese people in the capacity of ROC nationals have to regard Taiwan as part of the ROC as well. Thus, the undetermined status of Taiwan has been solved. In other words, although Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan, it returned Taiwan to the ROC in a rather indirect manner, through the treaty of Taipei.


In this connection, it is interesting to consider a passage in International Law authored by Malcom N. Shaw (2003).
Consider p. 211 in particular.

... In 1979 the US recognised the People's Republic of China as the sole and legitimate government of China.178 Accordingly, Taiwan would appear to be a non-state territorial entity which is capable of acting independently on the international scene, but is most probably de jure part of China...

Also, it should be mentioned that the UN yearbooks have long listed Taiwan as "Taiwan province of China". Since it is unlikely that the UN itself violates international law, I am forced to conclude, following Prof. Shaw, that Taiwan is most probably de jure part of China.


Why didn't they simply asked the people living on the island what they want to be?
I keep reading the UN, Japanese,the KMT and China, but, not at any point, they asked the inhabitants of that territory/whatever.


The Taiwanese people actually welcomed the KMT army and government when they first arrived on the island in 1945. They also actively cooperated with the KMT in adminstration and elections. The first legislative meeting in China had Taiwanese legislators, FYI. This can be considered an act of self-determination on the part of the Taiwanese people, and thus constitutes legal grounds for China's claim over Taiwan. After all, most Taiwanese people are ethnic Chinese, so they were eager to see Taiwan become part of China at that time, at least until they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption.

Although few Taiwanese people call themselves Zhongguoren (Chinese in the political sense) nowadays, it wasn't the case a mere decade ago.
However, the embarrassing fact is, the Taiwanese people have never denied the ROC system; instead, they have embraced the ROC constitution, which treats Taiwan as part of China, through elections and other democratic measures. If the Taiwanese people themselves don't want to change, why should they expect others to treat Taiwan as a sovereign state?


Sorry dude, but the 228 incident/Massacre in 1947 contradicts pretty much your claims of Taiwanese people welcoming anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident


raymondaliasapollyon wrote Didn't you see that I wrote 'at least UNTIL they experienced the infamous 228 incident and the KMT's corruption"?


Easiest way to solve this issue still would be simply asking the people of Taiwan and let them vote.




So you mean by sneaking this in there as a side sentence makes your argument all valid.

number of deaths vary from 10,000 to 30,000 or more
This is what I call a major resistance not just some extremist hippies. After 2 years only.
Your type of argumentation sounds very familiar to me. I kind of know what corner that is coming from already.



Sneaking in? I don't understand what you're talking about. I believe it is a fault on your part to ignore that crucial statement in my comment.
About the dealth toll of the incident, there is some controversy. A recent study by a researcher at the Academic Sinica claimed that the number is actually less than one thousand, as those who claimed compensation number rough 800 something. It should also be noted that the people killed included not only Taiwanese, but also waishengren killed by some Taiwanese mob.

Btw, have you looked at the Wikipedia entry closely? Seen "INITIALLY WELCOMED"?


Now you want to argue numbers of dead people? Are you serious?
If it were more than two it wasn't an accident. More than 3 definitely qualifies for a massacre.

If you are so sure about this why wouldn't you just let the people vote instead of bringing up ridiculous arguments?

Anyway I am out of here.
This is not China with 1.200 000 000 people this is Taiwan wit only 23 000 000 people where 800 human lives still count.
At least I hope so.



Check out this guy's research before buying any story criculated by the Pan-Green camp:

December 10, 2011, Chu Hong-yuan, (朱浤源),Ph.D., Historian at Taiwan's Academia Sinica: on major findings of his research team's recently released 6-volume report on Taiwan's 1947 '228 Incident.'
http://dcmandarinspeakers.org/Past_Events.html

The causes of the incident may not be what you see on Wikipedia. If you are serious enough, you should examine his study.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxaTSkvUgI4

http://www.praisenworship.com/A55A25/CG ... enDocument
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Isha » 30 May 2012, 23:11

Why can't everyone quote only the matter they are replying to rather than the whole debate?
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Confuzius » 30 May 2012, 23:16

Isha wrote:Why can't everyone quote only the matter they are replying to rather than the whole debate?


that would take brain power and patience.

Much easier and quicker to simply snipe at each other like little children based on wikkipedia, and do criticize HOW they utilize wikipedia.

But please, continue :popcorn:
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Re: Taiwan is Not Part of China

Postby Hamletintaiwan » 31 May 2012, 01:32

Confuzius wrote:that would take brain power and patience.

Much easier and quicker to simply snipe at each other like little children based on wikkipedia, and do criticize HOW they utilize wikipedia.

But please, continue :popcorn:

I devoted 0.001% of my brainpower cleaning up my posts.
My arguments weren't based on wikipedia, they were based on the fact that the KMT was responsible for a massacre.
Detailed facts don't really matter to me in this regard, since I would never support any organisation responsible for this kind of thing.
I even go further to say that a political party, responsible for mass murder, should be terminated and not just renamed like the East German SED to PDS.

The KMT didn't even feel enough shame to rename itself.
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