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Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

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Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, you can send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby Mango » 10 Jun 2012, 13:38

Communist China is a bully.

Why not let Taiwan decide their fate like Quebec was able to during their last referendum in Canada?
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby fanglangzhe » 10 Jun 2012, 15:32

urodacus wrote:wishful thinking. YOU want unification, so it's inevitable.

At least you didn't say reunification. Taiwan was never part of China. Taiwan was as much China as Okinawa was, or Poland.


No, the notion of de jure independence is even more wishful thinking than unification. As many of the comments have already noted. I assume you are in favor of de jure independence but the chances of that are much lower than unification, for better or worse. And, yes, China is a bully. Not that there's much anyone can do about that, not even USA.
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Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby headhonchoII » 11 Jun 2012, 12:26

Mango wrote:Communist China is a bully.

Why not let Taiwan decide their fate like Quebec was able to during their last referendum in Canada?


The Chinese will be bullies just because they can , not because they are communist.

But your point is very valid and so often ignored. The expectations of real democracy don't extend beyond a few countries.
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby ChewDawg » 11 Jun 2012, 12:39

Mango wrote:Communist China is a bully.

Why not let Taiwan decide their fate like Quebec was able to during their last referendum in Canada?


I'll come across as Hamiltonian here instead of Jacksonian, but never underestimate the stupidity/ignorance of people in elections or referendums.

My opinion of the DPP is similar to my opinion of the BQ (full of tribal little people that have very little knowledge of economics and who couldn't run a peanut stand ).

Quebec, considering how much power it has relative to its population within Confederation and how it is subsidized big time by the wealthier provinces, would be absolutely crazy to leave Canada. It has it so good when it comes to the largesse it receives from the Feds, to the representation it gets in parliament and the civil service, and to the economic subsidies it receives in equalization payments or other goodies. It would be crazy to give all this away to become a third-world entity. They would be crazy to leave.

Similarly, Taiwan, which already in practical terms is independent, would be absolutely crazy to risk its economic standing by provoking Beijing with the pipe dream of independence.

Fuck the dreamers on this one! :lol: :D Do I support the right to a referendum? Sure. Do I think they'd do the smart thing? Probably not (although I think the Quebecers now realize the economic implications of going it alone).
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby Dog's_Breakfast » 11 Jun 2012, 19:26

Mango wrote:Communist China is a bully.
Why not let Taiwan decide their fate like Quebec was able to during their last referendum in Canada?


China is a bully - you won't get much argument on that point in this forum.

As for a referendum - remember that the title of this thread is "Taiwan Independence - REALISTICALLY, How?" Note the emphasis on realism.

Taiwan can have the referendum on independence, and if independence wins, we can have a quick war with China, where Taiwan capitulates and then becomes a fully integrated province of China like Fujian. Is that what you'd like to see? Even Hong Kong got a better deal than that.
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby RealityBites » 10 Jul 2012, 05:23

The trouble with Taiwan trying to really be an independent nation is that it doesn't have any diplomatic ties with any other foreign nations and its economy is so dependent on China that even recognized as its own country, it would be a puppet regime of the PRC anyway. So realisitcally there's no way this TI thing could ever work, but the DPP just want to throw a hissy because it wants to stay in power.
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby Taffy » 10 Jul 2012, 08:47

RealityBites wrote:...the DPP just want to throw a hissy because it wants to stay in power.

You don't follow Taiwanese politics too closely then, I take it?
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby TaipeiDawg » 15 Jul 2012, 23:17

fanglangzhe wrote: Indeed. Some form of unification is a historical inevitability. Why can't people just accept it?
What is your definition of 'some form of unification'? Can I assume that means that Taiwan must be subservient to Beijing in some way, shape, or form? With the democratic government that Taiwan has today it's not like Beijing can just install a puppet into power. I suppose the KMT could try to redefine Taiwan's boundaries as some kind of 'area' of China as they are trying to do now and relations could be normalized a lot more. But to think that the constitution will be modified such that the government of Taiwan must somehow report to Beijing is stretching it.
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby Mucha Man » 16 Jul 2012, 01:09

fanglangzhe wrote:What kind of Mainland China would voluntarily let Taiwan go? As long as the Mainland population are so pro unification, even a fully democratic China would not let Taiwan go, as the people would demand that their government stop it (by force if necessary). So what will change the mindset of the average Chinese?


Ever been to the mainland? Most people don't care, especially the younger generation. This is an issue for the government not the people.
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Re: Taiwan Independence: Realistically, how?

Postby fanglangzhe » 16 Jul 2012, 11:46

Muzha Man wrote:
fanglangzhe wrote:What kind of Mainland China would voluntarily let Taiwan go? As long as the Mainland population are so pro unification, even a fully democratic China would not let Taiwan go, as the people would demand that their government stop it (by force if necessary). So what will change the mindset of the average Chinese?


Ever been to the mainland? Most people don't care, especially the younger generation. This is an issue for the government not the people.


Yes, I've been to Mainland more than 20 times over the last 20 years and almost everyone I meet who spoke about the subject insist Taiwan is part of China. These people ranged in age from 20s to 60s and almost none of them worked in government. I suppose the people you've met are just different from the ones I have.
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