Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

[ChewDawg]

Koo is in jail as far as I know but for other charges. He's a completely odious character.

I have a hell of a lot of respect for Koo Sr. (Chairman of China Trust). I admit I'm biased---am a close friend of his former personal secretary [important position in Chinese culture].

Apart from being a roving ROC ambassador, representative to APEC etc., he's been a strong advocate for international cooperation between Taiwan and numerous countries on a number of fronts. You may not like his son Muzha Man, but they're an old Taiwan family (first Chinese family to sit in the Japanese Diet back in the early 20th Century) that has done a lot of unpaid work for Taiwan on the international front.

To me, they represent the best of noblesse oblige. They've made a lot of money, but they've also gave a lot back to Taiwan. They've had to deal with some political figures, but I'd put the latter (i.e. politicians in Taiwan) as being the odious types. In traditional Chinese culture, good people just don't enter politics.

[fh2000]

Former vice president, Lu, just said in front of reporters, having just gone to visit Chen, that his attempt to commit suicide is not in the current jail location, but it was during detention period. I am not sure which detention place that was though.

[headhonchoII]

Chen, ever the drama queen!
Still they should not have given him such a long sentence, this is obviously political persecution.

[Dog's_Breakfast]

Although this is slightly off-topic, I wonder how many people here on Forumosa have heard of Hong Kong's Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC)? It was set up by the British in 1974 and proved to be astonishingly successful - Hong Kong became less corrupt than Britain itself. I think one of the reasons why it worked so well is that it was set up by outsiders (British civil servants) with no ties to local special interests. So the big "I" in "ICAC" (Independent) really meant something.

Not surprisingly, under China's rule, the ICAC has slowly eroded. However, they do currently have one big case going on right now against the second richest person in Hong Kong. It's seen by the public as something of a litmus test - a conviction would be a surprise, but no doubt would help to restore the ICAC's badly battered reputation.

One great thing about the ICAC's methods - all they need to get a conviction is for civil servants to accumulate a large amount of unexplained wealth. It's not necessary to prove where it came from. Thus, if a civil servant earning US$40,000 a year suddenly gains US$2 million in wealth with no legitimate way to account for it, that is proof enough for a conviction. Under that standard, Chen Shuibian's US$23 million would indeed have gotten him put behind bars, though probably not for life.

Taiwan could certainly use a system like this. Closest thing we have here is the Control Yuan. Unfortunately, unlike the ICAC its members are appointed locally by politicians who have plenty to hide (as well as political enemies to prosecute - ie Chen). Thus, the Control Yuan's "independence" is more than a little questionable.

I'll add that I'm from the USA, and consider it to be one of the most corrupt nations on Earth. Probably less corrupt than Zimbabwe, but certainly in no position to lecture Taiwan on "clean government." The shenanigans on Wall Street make Taiwan look like a model of virtue by comparison. The USA could certainly use an ICAC, and most certainly will never have one.

[Mucha Man]

Koo is in jail as far as I know but for other charges. He's a completely odious character.

I have a hell of a lot of respect for Koo Sr. (Chairman of China Trust). I admit I'm biased---am a close friend of his former personal secretary [important position in Chinese culture].

Apart from being a roving ROC ambassador, representative to APEC etc., he's been a strong advocate for international cooperation between Taiwan and numerous countries on a number of fronts. You may not like his son Muzha Man, but they're an old Taiwan family (first Chinese family to sit in the Japanese Diet back in the early 20th Century) that has done a lot of unpaid work for Taiwan on the international front.

To me, they represent the best of noblesse oblige. They've made a lot of money, but they've also gave a lot back to Taiwan. They've had to deal with some political figures, but I'd put the latter (i.e. politicians in Taiwan) as being the odious types. In traditional Chinese culture, good people just don't enter politics.

Any excuse to name drop eh Chewie? But do you have any values that apply to all classes and all people or does it always depend on whether you have some personal relationship and just how wealthy the subject is?

Noblesse oblige? Like the Kennedies?

[fh2000]

I'll add that I'm from the USA, and consider it to be one of the most corrupt nations on Earth. Probably less corrupt than Zimbabwe, but certainly in no position to lecture Taiwan on "clean government." The shenanigans on Wall Street make Taiwan look like a model of virtue by comparison. The USA could certainly use an ICAC, and most certainly will never have one.

The US educated Dr Sun adopted the 3 branches from US, and added The Control Yuan (監察院) and Examination Yuan to make is a 5 branch government, for better or for worse. The latter 2 are old government functions for hundreds of years though. Some officials were be-headed by the emperors for speaking up. Still, followers in that branch continued to speak up and got be-headed, as the story goes. I wonder who will risk their heads today?


Disclaimer: I am a dual citizen (US/Taiwan).

[Feiren]

Chewie,

You are really off on this one.

The Koo family opened the gates of Taipei to the Japanese and served them loyally while profiting greatly.

They served the KMT loyally as well. Koo Chen-fu was Taiwan's chief negotiator for the cross straits talks back in the 1990s that produced the fictitious and retrospective 1992 consensus. He played a very important role as a leading Taiwanese family in legitimizing the whole cross-straits framework that now traps Taiwan. Needless, to say, the Koos vastly expanded their fortune under the KMT with gobs of sweetheart deals like the Asia Cement factory at the mouth of the Taroko Gorge built on land stolen from illiterate Taroko tribesman.

In the 2000s, they wheeled and dealed their way to acquiring vast swathes of Taiwan's state banking sector (ICBC, China Deveopment Bank etc) by sucking up to the DPP and pretending to be loyal to the cause.

Then they promptly sold the Chen's down the river once the KMT cam back to power by perjuring themselves in the Longtan land case (How they got that land in the first place is another story).

Now they are reaping their reward by having the criminal charges against them in the Megabank and China Dev cases slowly hollowed out as the public forgets and they are allowed to sell KGI securities (their own company) to China Development (which they control but don't own much of).

Noblesse Oblige, my ass. The Koo family is a clan of swindlers and traitors. Even the Wang family looks good compared to those hustlers.

Koo is in jail as far as I know but for other charges. He's a completely odious character.

I have a hell of a lot of respect for Koo Sr. (Chairman of China Trust). I admit I'm biased---am a close friend of his former personal secretary [important position in Chinese culture].

Apart from being a roving ROC ambassador, representative to APEC etc., he's been a strong advocate for international cooperation between Taiwan and numerous countries on a number of fronts. You may not like his son Muzha Man, but they're an old Taiwan family (first Chinese family to sit in the Japanese Diet back in the early 20th Century) that has done a lot of unpaid work for Taiwan on the international front.

To me, they represent the best of noblesse oblige. They've made a lot of money, but they've also gave a lot back to Taiwan. They've had to deal with some political figures, but I'd put the latter (i.e. politicians in Taiwan) as being the odious types. In traditional Chinese culture, good people just don't enter politics.

[stevef]

Dick Cheney should be allowed to die in prison. Next question?

[headhonchoII]

Some good news finally coming Chen's way. I'm no fan of Chen but his current treatment is deplorable. I'm willing to look at Hau in a new light after he was the first to come out and cross party lines with some common sense humanity.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2B ... 66739.html

In his presiding remarks, Hau praised Deng's contribution to Taiwan's democracy, but added that it hasn't yet fully matured and the political community is still riven by relentless factional infighting and cross-party fire.

Dissolving enmity requires one party taking the first step, and the central government rightfully carries that responsibility, he continued.

As a gesture of good will, related government bureaus should adopt a "positive and proactive approach" in their handling of Chen's case for medical parole.

"Granting Chen medical parole is a meaningful move toward soothing the wounds of society," he said.

Hau also suggested that the central government organise a medical team to perform a detailed physical and mental assessment of Chen, something that the former leader's family has requested for months. Hau's remarks triggered audible approval from the crowd.

[sandman]

Some good news finally coming Chen's way. I'm no fan of Chen but his current treatment is deplorable. I'm willing to look at Hau in a new light after he was the first to come out and cross party lines with some common sense humanity.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2B ... 66739.html

In his presiding remarks, Hau praised Deng's contribution to Taiwan's democracy, but added that it hasn't yet fully matured and the political community is still riven by relentless factional infighting and cross-party fire.

Dissolving enmity requires one party taking the first step, and the central government rightfully carries that responsibility, he continued.

As a gesture of good will, related government bureaus should adopt a "positive and proactive approach" in their handling of Chen's case for medical parole.

"Granting Chen medical parole is a meaningful move toward soothing the wounds of society," he said.

Hau also suggested that the central government organise a medical team to perform a detailed physical and mental assessment of Chen, something that the former leader's family has requested for months. Hau's remarks triggered audible approval from the crowd.

What's the point? Just the same old green/blue poncifying. DPP says it should be "humanitarian" (whatever they mean by that). The blues say it should be based on "law" (whatever they mean by that). Cock-waving by people with really tiny knobs. That much we DO know.
Chen's an odious thieving cunt. We KNOW this. His party doesn't care. We KNOW that. His jailers are power-hungry fuckers. We KNOW that. They don't care that we know. Wave your daft wee willies in the air. For all the good it will do. Suckers.