Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Topics related to Taiwan and Taiwan/China issues can be discussed here. Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, please send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Moderator: TheGingerMan

Forum rules
Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, you can send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby ChewDawg » 19 Jul 2012, 04:47

Muzha Man wrote:
Koo is in jail as far as I know but for other charges. He's a completely odious character.


I have a hell of a lot of respect for Koo Sr. (Chairman of China Trust). I admit I'm biased---am a close friend of his former personal secretary [important position in Chinese culture].

Apart from being a roving ROC ambassador, representative to APEC etc., he's been a strong advocate for international cooperation between Taiwan and numerous countries on a number of fronts. You may not like his son Muzha Man, but they're an old Taiwan family (first Chinese family to sit in the Japanese Diet back in the early 20th Century) that has done a lot of unpaid work for Taiwan on the international front. :thumbsup: :2cents:

To me, they represent the best of noblesse oblige. They've made a lot of money, but they've also gave a lot back to Taiwan. They've had to deal with some political figures, but I'd put the latter (i.e. politicians in Taiwan) as being the odious types. In traditional Chinese culture, good people just don't enter politics.
So I got an expresso and a hot burrito!
Forumosan avatar
ChewDawg
Gravel Truck Driver (suìshí chē sījī)
Gravel Truck Driver (suìshí chē sījī)
 
Posts: 1367
Joined: 06 Sep 2011, 10:27
110 Recommends(s)
93 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby fh2000 » 19 Jul 2012, 05:30

Former vice president, Lu, just said in front of reporters, having just gone to visit Chen, that his attempt to commit suicide is not in the current jail location, but it was during detention period. I am not sure which detention place that was though.
fh2000
English Teacher with Headband (bǎng tóujīn de Yīngwén lǎoshī)
English Teacher with Headband (bǎng tóujīn de Yīngwén lǎoshī)
 
Posts: 194
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 08:50
Location: Los Angeles, USA
10 Recognized(s)



Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby headhonchoII » 19 Jul 2012, 05:43

Chen, ever the drama queen!
Still they should not have given him such a long sentence, this is obviously political persecution.
I can remember the fourth of July runnin' through the backwood bare.
And I can still hear my old hound dog barkin' chasin' down a hoodoo there
Chasin' down a hoodoo there.
headhonchoII
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 12621
Joined: 26 Aug 2002, 10:40
Location: Taipei
1718 Recommends(s)
622 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby Dog's_Breakfast » 19 Jul 2012, 09:38

Although this is slightly off-topic, I wonder how many people here on Forumosa have heard of Hong Kong's Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC)? It was set up by the British in 1974 and proved to be astonishingly successful - Hong Kong became less corrupt than Britain itself. I think one of the reasons why it worked so well is that it was set up by outsiders (British civil servants) with no ties to local special interests. So the big "I" in "ICAC" (Independent) really meant something.

Not surprisingly, under China's rule, the ICAC has slowly eroded. However, they do currently have one big case going on right now against the second richest person in Hong Kong. It's seen by the public as something of a litmus test - a conviction would be a surprise, but no doubt would help to restore the ICAC's badly battered reputation.

One great thing about the ICAC's methods - all they need to get a conviction is for civil servants to accumulate a large amount of unexplained wealth. It's not necessary to prove where it came from. Thus, if a civil servant earning US$40,000 a year suddenly gains US$2 million in wealth with no legitimate way to account for it, that is proof enough for a conviction. Under that standard, Chen Shuibian's US$23 million would indeed have gotten him put behind bars, though probably not for life.

Taiwan could certainly use a system like this. Closest thing we have here is the Control Yuan. Unfortunately, unlike the ICAC its members are appointed locally by politicians who have plenty to hide (as well as political enemies to prosecute - ie Chen). Thus, the Control Yuan's "independence" is more than a little questionable.

I'll add that I'm from the USA, and consider it to be one of the most corrupt nations on Earth. Probably less corrupt than Zimbabwe, but certainly in no position to lecture Taiwan on "clean government." The shenanigans on Wall Street make Taiwan look like a model of virtue by comparison. The USA could certainly use an ICAC, and most certainly will never have one.
Welcome to the Hotel Forumosa. You can login anytime you like, but you can never leave.
Forumosan avatar
Dog's_Breakfast
Street Dog Chaser (zhuīgǎn liúlàng gǒu)
Street Dog Chaser (zhuīgǎn liúlàng gǒu)
 
Posts: 1225
Joined: 27 Oct 2004, 20:32
63 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby Mucha Man » 19 Jul 2012, 10:32

ChewDawg wrote:
Muzha Man wrote:
Koo is in jail as far as I know but for other charges. He's a completely odious character.


I have a hell of a lot of respect for Koo Sr. (Chairman of China Trust). I admit I'm biased---am a close friend of his former personal secretary [important position in Chinese culture].

Apart from being a roving ROC ambassador, representative to APEC etc., he's been a strong advocate for international cooperation between Taiwan and numerous countries on a number of fronts. You may not like his son Muzha Man, but they're an old Taiwan family (first Chinese family to sit in the Japanese Diet back in the early 20th Century) that has done a lot of unpaid work for Taiwan on the international front. :thumbsup: :2cents:

To me, they represent the best of noblesse oblige. They've made a lot of money, but they've also gave a lot back to Taiwan. They've had to deal with some political figures, but I'd put the latter (i.e. politicians in Taiwan) as being the odious types. In traditional Chinese culture, good people just don't enter politics.


Any excuse to name drop eh Chewie? But do you have any values that apply to all classes and all people or does it always depend on whether you have some personal relationship and just how wealthy the subject is?

Noblesse oblige? Like the Kennedies?
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

http://hikingintaiwan.blogspot.com/

This post was recommended by 2 Forumosans: Chris (19 Jul 2012, 10:34), tetentikov (19 Jul 2012, 18:24)
Rating: 8%
Forumosan avatar
Mucha Man
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 18640
Joined: 01 Nov 2001, 17:01
Location: Mucha, of course
802 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby fh2000 » 19 Jul 2012, 10:47

Dog's_Breakfast wrote:
I'll add that I'm from the USA, and consider it to be one of the most corrupt nations on Earth. Probably less corrupt than Zimbabwe, but certainly in no position to lecture Taiwan on "clean government." The shenanigans on Wall Street make Taiwan look like a model of virtue by comparison. The USA could certainly use an ICAC, and most certainly will never have one.


The US educated Dr Sun adopted the 3 branches from US, and added The Control Yuan (監察院) and Examination Yuan to make is a 5 branch government, for better or for worse. The latter 2 are old government functions for hundreds of years though. Some officials were be-headed by the emperors for speaking up. Still, followers in that branch continued to speak up and got be-headed, as the story goes. I wonder who will risk their heads today?


Disclaimer: I am a dual citizen (US/Taiwan).
fh2000
English Teacher with Headband (bǎng tóujīn de Yīngwén lǎoshī)
English Teacher with Headband (bǎng tóujīn de Yīngwén lǎoshī)
 
Posts: 194
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 08:50
Location: Los Angeles, USA
10 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby Feiren » 19 Jul 2012, 10:54

Chewie,

You are really off on this one.

The Koo family opened the gates of Taipei to the Japanese and served them loyally while profiting greatly.

They served the KMT loyally as well. Koo Chen-fu was Taiwan's chief negotiator for the cross straits talks back in the 1990s that produced the fictitious and retrospective 1992 consensus. He played a very important role as a leading Taiwanese family in legitimizing the whole cross-straits framework that now traps Taiwan. Needless, to say, the Koos vastly expanded their fortune under the KMT with gobs of sweetheart deals like the Asia Cement factory at the mouth of the Taroko Gorge built on land stolen from illiterate Taroko tribesman.

In the 2000s, they wheeled and dealed their way to acquiring vast swathes of Taiwan's state banking sector (ICBC, China Deveopment Bank etc) by sucking up to the DPP and pretending to be loyal to the cause.

Then they promptly sold the Chen's down the river once the KMT cam back to power by perjuring themselves in the Longtan land case (How they got that land in the first place is another story).

Now they are reaping their reward by having the criminal charges against them in the Megabank and China Dev cases slowly hollowed out as the public forgets and they are allowed to sell KGI securities (their own company) to China Development (which they control but don't own much of).

Noblesse Oblige, my ass. The Koo family is a clan of swindlers and traitors. Even the Wang family looks good compared to those hustlers.





ChewDawg wrote:
Muzha Man wrote:
Koo is in jail as far as I know but for other charges. He's a completely odious character.


I have a hell of a lot of respect for Koo Sr. (Chairman of China Trust). I admit I'm biased---am a close friend of his former personal secretary [important position in Chinese culture].

Apart from being a roving ROC ambassador, representative to APEC etc., he's been a strong advocate for international cooperation between Taiwan and numerous countries on a number of fronts. You may not like his son Muzha Man, but they're an old Taiwan family (first Chinese family to sit in the Japanese Diet back in the early 20th Century) that has done a lot of unpaid work for Taiwan on the international front. :thumbsup: :2cents:

To me, they represent the best of noblesse oblige. They've made a lot of money, but they've also gave a lot back to Taiwan. They've had to deal with some political figures, but I'd put the latter (i.e. politicians in Taiwan) as being the odious types. In traditional Chinese culture, good people just don't enter politics.
Feiren
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
 
Posts: 4912
Joined: 05 Jan 2002, 17:01
Location: Drum Tower
4 Recommends(s)
204 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby stevef » 19 Jul 2012, 10:58

Dick Cheney should be allowed to die in prison. Next question?
stevef
English Teacher with Headband (bǎng tóujīn de Yīngwén lǎoshī)
English Teacher with Headband (bǎng tóujīn de Yīngwén lǎoshī)
 
Posts: 156
Joined: 17 Apr 2010, 14:22
2 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby headhonchoII » 22 Aug 2012, 13:39

Some good news finally coming Chen's way. I'm no fan of Chen but his current treatment is deplorable. I'm willing to look at Hau in a new light after he was the first to come out and cross party lines with some common sense humanity.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2B ... 66739.html

In his presiding remarks, Hau praised Deng's contribution to Taiwan's democracy, but added that it hasn't yet fully matured and the political community is still riven by relentless factional infighting and cross-party fire.

Dissolving enmity requires one party taking the first step, and the central government rightfully carries that responsibility, he continued.

As a gesture of good will, related government bureaus should adopt a "positive and proactive approach" in their handling of Chen's case for medical parole.

"Granting Chen medical parole is a meaningful move toward soothing the wounds of society," he said.

Hau also suggested that the central government organise a medical team to perform a detailed physical and mental assessment of Chen, something that the former leader's family has requested for months. Hau's remarks triggered audible approval from the crowd.
I can remember the fourth of July runnin' through the backwood bare.
And I can still hear my old hound dog barkin' chasin' down a hoodoo there
Chasin' down a hoodoo there.
headhonchoII
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 12621
Joined: 26 Aug 2002, 10:40
Location: Taipei
1718 Recommends(s)
622 Recognized(s)



Re: Should Chennie be allowed to die in prison

Postby sandman » 22 Aug 2012, 13:46

headhonchoII wrote:Some good news finally coming Chen's way. I'm no fan of Chen but his current treatment is deplorable. I'm willing to look at Hau in a new light after he was the first to come out and cross party lines with some common sense humanity.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2B ... 66739.html

In his presiding remarks, Hau praised Deng's contribution to Taiwan's democracy, but added that it hasn't yet fully matured and the political community is still riven by relentless factional infighting and cross-party fire.

Dissolving enmity requires one party taking the first step, and the central government rightfully carries that responsibility, he continued.

As a gesture of good will, related government bureaus should adopt a "positive and proactive approach" in their handling of Chen's case for medical parole.

"Granting Chen medical parole is a meaningful move toward soothing the wounds of society," he said.

Hau also suggested that the central government organise a medical team to perform a detailed physical and mental assessment of Chen, something that the former leader's family has requested for months. Hau's remarks triggered audible approval from the crowd.

What's the point? Just the same old green/blue poncifying. DPP says it should be "humanitarian" (whatever they mean by that). The blues say it should be based on "law" (whatever they mean by that). Cock-waving by people with really tiny knobs. That much we DO know.
Chen's an odious thieving cunt. We KNOW this. His party doesn't care. We KNOW that. His jailers are power-hungry fuckers. We KNOW that. They don't care that we know. Wave your daft wee willies in the air. For all the good it will do. Suckers.

This post was recommended by archylgp (22 Aug 2012, 14:14)
Rating: 4%
sandman
Manjusri (Wénshū)
 
Posts: 30176
Joined: 04 Jun 2001, 16:01
28 Recommends(s)
199 Recognized(s)



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
PreviousNext




Proceed to Taiwan Politics



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher and 2 visitors

Go for it now. The future is promised to no one -- WAYNE DYER