Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

[Bu Lai En]

This topic comes up a lot on this forum.

Most recently we've been discussing it in this thread. But that thread was started in 2002. Things have changed, as have peoples' opinions. Also that thread was going well off-topic.

And this one discusses the independence policy of the DPP.

I think it will be interesting to discuss the wider possibilities than a simple independence vs unfication scenraio. What are the other options?

If you don't like the idea of unification with China, is that just becuase China is a communist country? What if China reformed and became democratic. Would you then like Taiwan to unify with China, maybe 30 years down the line? Personally, I'd like to see Taiwan remain independent even then, but think that it would have to be up to the people of Taiwan to vote in a free poll. Or should the people of China also get a say?

If you support Taiwan Independence (TI), do you think Taiwan should declare independence now? Or do you think the threat of China attacking is real and not to be ignored? If these are your reasons for opposing TI, would you like to see Taiwan independent if the situation changed and there would be no repurcussions? That's my view - independence when possible, but folly to declare it now.

So, I've revamped the poll. Results of the previous poll were:
Which do you support?
Taiwan Independence: 29% (23)
Reunification with the Mainland: 13% (11)
Self-determination (No matter what the outcome): 56% (45)

[Yellow Cartman]

This topic comes up a lot on this forum.

Hey, nice comprehensive stab at a very slippery topic.

If you support Taiwan Independence (TI), do you think Taiwan should declare independence now?

Yes. Then petition the United Nations for recognition under their Universal Declaration of Human Rights. See relevant section Part 1, Article 1

Or do you think the threat of China attacking is real and not to be ignored?

Yes. But that should have no bearing on question above or below

If these are your reasons for opposing TI, would you like to see Taiwan independent if the situation changed and there would be no repurcussions?

There will always be repercussions. Those repercussions should not deter the exercise of political self-determination. If people are afraid of fighting and dieing for political independence, their nation, then they do not deserve one. It is just that simple. Just say you're Chinese from (the province of) Taiwan and be done with it.

That's my view - independence when possible, but folly to declare it now.

Delay in this matter greatly enhances China's position and the reunification of Taiwan.

[cmdjing]

Honestly, I don't really understand the purpose of this poll. It is a given that most/nearly all of the posters here are strident Taiwan independence supporters so why even bother with such a pedantic poll. Some will attempt to obfuscate the issue by cowardly dodging it by stating that they support some tenuous concept of "self-determination" but even that is actual doublespeak couched in a Taiwan independence agenda. Unless of course your rationale is to out how many pro-unification posters secretly stalk this forum, I don't really see how this poll will be constructive.

[Tetsuo]

Uh-oh, wassamatta man, afraid of a little nuance?

[Jive Turkey]

Honestly, I don't really understand the purpose of this poll. It is a given that most/nearly all of the posters here are strident Taiwan independence supporters so why even bother with such a pedantic poll. Some will attempt to obfuscate the issue by cowardly dodging it by stating that they support some tenuous concept of "self-determination" but even that is actual doublespeak couched in a Taiwan independence agenda.

Why is it that you assume "self-determination" equals "Taiwan independence?" Just how is it that recognizing that the two could be different is cowardly? It seems to me that your disdain for self determination reveals your insecurity and fear that if Taiwanese were left to choose for themselves, they would choose to be officially separate from your lot on the other side of the strait. That that is even a possibility makes the blood of most mainlanders boil. How about you?

I voted for the ROC liberating the mainland from the communist bandits. After the liberation, Tongyong Pinyin will replace Hanyu Pinyin and sh-, zh-, ch- and -er will be eliminated from the national language, which will be called "Gouyi". The pictures of Mao at Tiananmen will be pulled down and replaced with those of LDH and CSB. All the Fuji film kiosks at tourist sites throughout the mainland, and especially those at Tiananmen Square, will be replaced by betelnut stalls (of course properly staffed). All the Beijing duck joints in Beijing will be torn down and replaced by stalls selling superior culinary treats such as stinky tofu, duck tongue, chicken ass and pig intestines. Actually, Beijing will no longer be called Beijing. It will revert to the title of Beiping since the capitol will move to Tainan, of course. The Great Hall of the People will truly become a great hall of the people when it is converted into the largest Holiday KTV in China. The Qingdao, Haerbin and other breweries with geographic names will be forced to change their names. Taiwan Beer will be the only label allowed to keep a geographic name in order to prevent anybody from thinking of declaring independence after a bender. A-mei and F-4 will be commissioned to create a national anthem for the new republic. And of course, Shanghai will be pushed into the ocean, residents, gawdy buildings and all.

[Bu Lai En]

It is a given that most/nearly all of the posters here are strident Taiwan independence supporters so why even bother with such a pedantic poll.

Actually, in the previous poll only 29% supported TI.

Funny. You equate self-determination with TI - 'don't let them vote, because thy'll surely pick TI'.

And then you say there's no point to this poll, as everyone will just pick TI.

If you think the case for unification is so strong, why do you assume that everyone will pick independence?

Brian

[cmdjing]

Self-determination IS a lark to TI because to accept that the Taiwanese have a collective choice is to automatically assume they represent distinct unit within the Chinese body politic that has a choice regarding seccession. They do not.

Also, do not mistake me for a mainland shill argueing historical Chinese claims dating back to the Ming dynasty. I could care less about whatever historical validations exist justifying Chinese suzereignty over Taiwan beyond the fact that they exist. My concerns are not so much about the past, but about the present and the future of the Chinese state. It is in my opinion that the reunification of Taiwan will allow China to reap a windfall of benefits both political and strategic and it is vital in Chinese interests for either unification or a Finlandization of Taiwan. Taiwan independence ideology is both an ideological and strategic threat to China, thus it must be resisted and ultimately destroyed. For me, beyond the emotional level, Taiwan is a matter of simple interests.

As for a case of reunification, I think I can field a fairly persuasive arguement when there are 20 PLA divisions stationed on Taiwan. I don't think anyone would be in much of a position to disagree.

p.s. Most of the people here ARE TI supporters. Keep denying that if you wish though.

[maoman]

Self-determination IS a lark to TI because to accept that the Taiwanese have a collective choice is to automatically assume they represent distinct unit within the Chinese body politic that has a choice regarding seccession. They do not.

Why not? Do you mean to say that they don't have a choice? Or do you mean to say that Taiwan's status in Greater China is not distinct? I think you're wrong on every count.

As for a case of reunification, I think I can field a fairly persuasive arguement when there are 20 PLA divisions stationed on Taiwan. I don't think anyone would be in much of a position to disagree.

I think that you are trolling. Tread carefully. From the rules:

Trolling is not permitted. Trolling is the deliberate posting of false information or insincere comments/questions in order to elicit responses from genuinely concerned people. Trolling does not encourage further discussion in the long run, it only encourages personal attacks (if left unchecked). Substance is the key to not being labelled a troll. We ask that you do not make postings which are deliberately intended to upset other participants, start inflammatory arguments or interrupt legitimate discussion.

[Yellow Cartman]

Self-determination IS a lark to TI because to accept that the Taiwanese have a collective choice is to automatically assume they represent distinct unit within the Chinese body politic that has a choice regarding seccession. They do not.

I agree with your statement that the majority of people on Forumosa are TI supporters in some form or another. Even someone like me who believes that Taiwanese people are Chinese but yet believe they have the right to exercise their political rights such as voting, self-determination, etc. It's recognized as a universal human rights principle. That fact is played out all over the world where people fight and die for the right to self-determination and ultimately, nation-hood. So in a way, your equation of self-determination to independence isn't so off the mark.

It is in my opinion that the reunification of Taiwan will allow China to reap a windfall of benefits both political and strategic and it is vital in Chinese interests for either unification or a Finlandization of Taiwan.

I think Taiwan will eventually reunify...by voting with their investment dollars. China currently owns Taiwan as Taiwanese investment dollars continue to pour into Taiwan and Taiwanese businesses are expanding and protecting their stakes in coastal China. It's like this analogy, if you owe the bank $100,000, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank $100 mil dollars, you own the bank.

As for your support of a finlandization of the Taiwan issue, that's contrary to your position of reunification. Finlandization assumes sovereignty but that sovereignty comes with a price -- namely having a quid pro quo deal where in exchange for sovereignty, the country aligns itself with the dominant country politically, culturally, etc. China would never support a finlandization policy; it's an all position. Taiwan would be fortunate if it could negotiate a HK type solution. Furthermore, Taiwan is already within China's sphere of influence. It's the US-Japanese who have ratched up the stakes by its latest communique. If anything it's a show that Taiwan is a pawn in the Asia-Pac chess game.

Taiwan independence ideology is both an ideological and strategic threat to China, thus it must be resisted and ultimately destroyed.

It's a threat to Taiwan only. China has no fear of Taiwan independence or similar threats. It's like Tibet. China has that under control. Its expansion of the SAR and its existing semi-autonomous region policies would be able to fit Taiwan however it develops.

[Bu Lai En]

Self-determination IS a lark to TI because to accept that the Taiwanese have a collective choice is to automatically assume they represent distinct unit within the Chinese body politic that has a choice regarding seccession. They do not.

Not at all. Many would would say that they are not within the Chinese body politic at all.

It seems that your argument in favour of unification is that it would be good for China. That's kind of like saying Singapore should (re)unify with Malaysia, becasue it would be good for Malaysia (but forget what the people fo Singapore want).

Brian