Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?

[ludahai]

In Taiwan were to join, we'd need to get another state as well. It is really hard to arrange 51 stars into a symetric pattern on a flag. 52 on the other hand....

Puerto Rico or the UP of Michigan would be the most likely candidates...

[ninman]

What difference does it make? Taiwan will never get recognition from the UN no matter how much they beg for it. All they will do is piss China off. China is a permanent member of the security council with the power of vito, any petitions would be blocked, and you risk attack from China. Personally though I think they should declare independence, if they want it, they have to be willing to fight for it.

[zoossh]

What difference does it make? Taiwan will never get recognition from the UN no matter how much they beg for it. All they will do is piss China off. China is a permanent member of the security council with the power of vito, any petitions would be blocked, and you risk attack from China. Personally though I think they should declare independence, if they want it, they have to be willing to fight for it.

the de jure status is less important than the national identity, or the absence of such.

on the one extreme, you have the pro-china side who believes that the 85% ben sheng ren should be subjected to cultural definition by the beliefs of the wai sheng ren, since their holo and hakka counterparts in china is subjected so. they believe that Taiwan's fate and identity should be decided by the interest and belief of the PRC chinese and the taiwanese wai sheng ren, and that the identity and will of the taiwanese ben sheng ren, with regards to Taiwan's status, should be ignored

on the other extreme, you have the anti-wai sheng ren side who believes that taiwan belongs to only the aborigines, and the taiwanese holo and hakka communities, and since wai sheng ren still feel that the taiwanese wai sheng ren is afflicted with china, they should not be considered as taiwanese. they disregard the fact is chinese heritage is one of the many components towards the cultural identity of Taiwan, and attempts to deny that.

the neutral ground should be that the ben sheng and wai sheng ren subjecting their beliefs on themselves and not imposing the cultural identity on each other, and that Taiwan's identity is only be decided by the majority, of those who believe that they are, first and foremost, a taiwanese. it will be futile to fight for anything outside of Taiwan when someone is pulling your tail back home.

[Mucha Man]

the neutral ground should be that the ben sheng and wai sheng ren subjecting their beliefs on themselves and not imposing the cultural identity on each other, and that Taiwan's identity is only be decided by the majority, of those who believe that they are, first and foremost, a taiwanese. it will be futile to fight for anything outside of Taiwan when someone is pulling your tail back home.

This has been happening for the past 20 years. The KMT officially gave up trying to direct Taiwanese culture in the late 80s. Glad you noticed the result.

[Red Fox Ace]

Independence.

All the way.

[tainan666]

As I said in the other thread, what will happen about this issue is not my business, because I don't have any interest in this issue. So I will not take the side of any of the options in the poll.

But from my point of view, I think that in 20 or 30 years or so from now, many people who want independence will change their mind because China grows really fast and will become more and more powerful. But anything can happen... We will see.

[conta]

is there website where i could find all history (+ now) about this issue ?

objective, I mean

[goingstrong]

Geeze, I thought I submitted a vote for this poll a long time ago. Guess not. So, there. My vote is in for number 122.

Independence.

All the way.

Right on. Right on.

But from my point of view, I think that in 20 or 30 years or so from now, many people who want independence will change their mind because China grows really fast and will become more and more powerful. But anything can happen... We will see.

Hmmm... China will grow in economics until it pops somewhere. It may be #2 now, but that's only in money. It is still on the lower end of the scale for other things as long as the CPP is in power. So, you're thinking that people will want to join a bigger country for money? Raarw... Currently, Taiwan is already successful on its own terms. In 20-30 years from now, I think some of the people, who do not want (even this current technical) independence, might change their minds. We'll see indeed. ^___^

[Nick007]

What difference does it make? Taiwan will never get recognition from the UN no matter how much they beg for it. All they will do is piss China off. China is a permanent member of the security council with the power of vito, any petitions would be blocked, and you risk attack from China. Personally though I think they should declare independence, if they want it, they have to be willing to fight for it.

China's veto power only carries as much power as we allow it to carry. Mongolia entered the UN in the 1950's. Taiwan (ROC) was at the time a UN member with a seat on the UN security council. They had the ability to veto. But their veto power didn't keep Mongolia out. The ROC constitution claims sovereignty over mongolia just like the PRC constitution claims sovereignty over Taiwan. Besides in 1971 when PRC finally got in, well ROC's veto power didn't have an effect.

Now if the US were to finally live up to it's principles of democracy and liberty as it's taught in American school text books, and put pressure on as many countries in the world possible also to recognize Taiwan and support their UN membership bid, then the pressure is on China. If every western country and every EU member state were to threaten sanctions against China as long as they keep trying to keep Taiwan out of the UN, China would just drop it and let Taiwan in no questions asked.

At the end of the day if Taiwan becomes more trouble for China than what it's worth, China won't bother Taiwan anymore. Just like with Mongolia and parts of Russia. It turned out to be way more trouble than what it would even be worth. Russia supported independence for Mongolia and PRC willingly agreed that those parts of Russia which were part of China before are now Russian territory. Too much trouble to claim those areas, so it was just easier just to simply let them go.

[ludahai]

China's veto power only carries as much power as we allow it to carry. Mongolia entered the UN in the 1950's. Taiwan (ROC) was at the time a UN member with a seat on the UN security council. They had the ability to veto. But their veto power didn't keep Mongolia out. The ROC constitution claims sovereignty over mongolia just like the PRC constitution claims sovereignty over Taiwan. Besides in 1971 when PRC finally got in, well ROC's veto power didn't have an effect.

China (ROC) did not use its veto power in the Security Council to block advisement of it's acceptance by the GA.

As for 1971, that never went to the Security Council. The GA ruled that it wasn't a matter of admitting a new member, but rather "restoring" the rights to the rightful sovereign power. Transferring UN rights to successor states has become routine (especially since the collapse of the USSR), but while this was not the first time a successor regime took the seat of a prior regime in the UN, it was the most controversial.

Now if the US were to finally live up to it's principles of democracy and liberty as it's taught in American school text books, and put pressure on as many countries in the world possible also to recognize Taiwan and support their UN membership bid, then the pressure is on China. If every western country and every EU member state were to threaten sanctions against China as long as they keep trying to keep Taiwan out of the UN, China would just drop it and let Taiwan in no questions asked.

Totally agree with this, but it won't happen unless China does something really egregious...

At the end of the day if Taiwan becomes more trouble for China than what it's worth, China won't bother Taiwan anymore. Just like with Mongolia and parts of Russia. It turned out to be way more trouble than what it would even be worth. Russia supported independence for Mongolia and PRC willingly agreed that those parts of Russia which were part of China before are now Russian territory. Too much trouble to claim those areas, so it was just easier just to simply let them go.

Were China a rational actor, it would realize that a friendly, independent Taiwan working together with China (and most Taiwanese genuinely want this as best I can tell) would be far better for Taiwan than either the status quo or forcibly incorporating a very uncooperative Taiwan.