Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby fanglangzhe » 13 May 2012, 22:39

urodacus wrote:But it is clear as mud that Taiwan's political machine, its press, and its future prospects under the KMT are anathema to the free and sovereign aspirations of the majority in Taiwan, foreigners and locals alike. In many respects, the KMT are foreigners too, so perhaps I'll just leave them out of this equation, and tell them to fuck off back to China.


So you're admitting that your own argument is totally unclear, as you said, its as clear as mud. And if KMT is anathema to the aspirations of the majority in Taiwan, how come the majority votes for KMT in the past few elections? You obviously think the local voters don't know what's best for them, which as I said, is pretty condescending.

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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby urodacus » 14 May 2012, 07:27

Hey, it's not condescending, just stating the facts. Too many people vote for short term gains without seeing the long term implications. Also, they tend to believe politicians more than they should.


that's not my problem, it's their problem. Well, it does concern me in so far as China getting hold of Taiwan has serious implications for security in the Western Pacific, but beyond that it's not my immediate problem.


The DPP has nothing better to offer, but at least they're not China lickspittles.

Now, if only Taiwan had had some politicians with balls and vision 40 years ago, when Carter recognised China as the legitimate rulers of China (which was totally correct). But No, the Taiwanese had the lamentable fortune of being saddled with the KMT losers.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby baberenglish » 14 May 2012, 08:33

I thought this wasn't about mudslinging?
The original purpose of this was to answer the question of why foreigners seem to be anti-KMT.
I think most foreigners are anti-KMT but as for their 'green' aspirations that is a turkey shoot.
Why specifically anti-KMT?
1. History in Taiwan. 'Cash my cheque' was a leader not popular around the world. Mr. Peanut pocketed a large portion of 'aid' money from western countries over the years.
2. White Terror.
3. Vietnam. The US paid an arm and a leg to have that secret air base in Tainan. That money went towards Highway #1 and whatever left was put at Taoyuan airport. After that, with all the diplomatic bullshit that Madame Soong (Mrs. Happy Ending) created was enough for many countries to cut diplomatic ties in the 70's.
4. Wealth. Although many thought the KMT was one of the richest parties in the world, the derivatives for earning this $ were highly 'questionable'. Of course we have all heard about the 'stolen' asset fiasco, the 'wealth' that was brought over from Beijing/Shanghai and those wonderful opium factories in Cambodia that provided solid cash flow. To me they haven't done much over the years to create a solid revenue base. In my mind they are just living off of interest.
5. Genealogy. Old habits die hard. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
6. Unification. Please. Only if it pays well.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby bohica » 14 May 2012, 11:23

urodacus wrote:Now, if only Taiwan had had some politicians with balls and vision 40 years ago, when Carter recognised China as the legitimate rulers of China (which was totally correct). But No, the Taiwanese had the lamentable fortune of being saddled with the KMT losers.


Do you mean Taiwan should have gone TI back then? It would have about as much chance of success as it does now, which is about as good as pigs flying.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby TaipeiDawg » 14 May 2012, 12:08

fanglangzhe wrote:
urodacus wrote:Who"s supporting the DPP? We're just anti-KMT.


So which Taiwan political party do you support? None? Btw, the idea that people who vote for KMT do so because they are ignorant or have been brain washed is pretty condescending and false. There are plenty of pro DPP media such as Liberty Times and a bunch of radio stations and TV stations. The argument that KMT dominates the Taiwan media to the extent that it can silence opposing views and brain wash everyone that votes for it is just not true.
Most of the locals who vote for KMT don't necessarily think the KMT is a good political party, they are mostly voting against the DPP. If you ask 10 people who voted for the KMT in the last election if they think Ma is a good and capable president you will be hard pressed to find 3 or 4 of them that will flat out say he's doing a good job and is competent. I constantly hear 'blue' people ragging on Ma yet they voted for him and would do the same again rather than vote DPP. A lot of people in Taiwan just consider the KMT to be the lesser of two evils. And there are a lot of reasons both historical and practical that people don't support the DPP.
That's why I would say that a lot of foreigners recognize that for this screwed up political system to work and evolve there must be 2 viable options for voters and currently the scale of advantage is tipped in the direction of the KMT. Most foreigners see the DPP as an underdog fighting against the behemoth of the KMT. Perhaps unrealistically to a large part, they see the DPP as being the 'good guy' in the fight and hope that it will be able to overcome the entrenched advantages that the KMT has enjoyed for a long time. Unfortunately, the reality is that the DPP is constantly shooting itself in the foot and bungling its chances but the foreign crowd often fails to acknowledge this fact and makes excuses for the DPP's inability to improve itself (of course, there are also foreigners here who make excuses for anything the KMT does). The fact is that the DPP needs to get its act together and there are quite a lot of people both foreign and local that hope it will actually happen some day. Until then, just sit back and enjoy the "One Country, Two Areas" show.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby fanglangzhe » 17 May 2012, 12:50

Just to point to another distinction, it seems foreigners living in Taiwan are more anti KMT than foreigners outside of Taiwan (or at least foreign governments). It sure doesn't seem that western governments in general favor DPP over KMT (perhaps because they don't want to upset China).

But, then again, those who care the most about Taiwan politics are the people who are stuck with living in Taiwan for the rest of their lives because they don't have foreign passports or other "homes" they can go back to. These are the people who vote and their choice over the last few elections has been clear. As to those foreigners who post on this forum, if DPP is in power and declares formal independence and things get dicey - you can just go back to your "home" countries. Its easier for you to be more "idealistic" on such things because you don't have to bear the consequences if things go sour. And you don't have the responsibility of being a government official of any country who doesn't want to piss off China (due to economic relations, strategic interests, etc). Perhaps that's another reason why foreigners in Taiwan are more anti-KMT than the local citizens.

Yet another nuance to consider - it seems most Americans in Taiwan would identify themselves with the US Democratic Party rather than the Republican Party. But it should be Republicans who are more anti-Communist and thus more sympathetic to DPP's pro TI stance, not Democrats.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby TaipeiDawg » 17 May 2012, 13:15

The old 'you will just leave if there's a war' argument has been around for quite a long time and is pretty worn out by now. Anyway, all the fleeing foreigners would have to line up behind all the dual passport holding locals to leave Taiwan.
Rush Limbaugh on a former morgue worker sentenced for abusing corpses: "You might be saying what -- what does this have to do with the Obama economy? Is it not clear, my friends? You don't have to take a corpse out to dinner. You don't have to buy a corpse a drink or a bottle of wine. You don't have to take the corpse anywhere in the car so you don't spend any fuel. They have -- you have a pervert here who chooses the cheapest way he can go all because of the Obama economy."
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby fanglangzhe » 17 May 2012, 13:38

I would be curious to know the % of Taiwan citizens who hold other passports, its probably well less than 50%. Which, again, means the majority of citizens will have a difficult time just packing up and leaving, a more difficult time than most foreigners.

Just because an argument has been around for a long time does not mean its no longer valid.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 17 May 2012, 14:21

I am extremely cynical about both major political parties here. However, I am also extremely cynical about both major political parties in Australia. I haven't voted in years, and I wouldn't vote for either the Australian Labor Party or the Liberal Party even if I were to vote again.

I suspect there are a few people from other countries here who are also similarly disenfranchised with their own countries' political options. I certainly don't want to live under a dictatorship, but democracy leaves me fairly cold.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Formosa Fitness » 17 May 2012, 21:10

I always considered myself pro-KMT because I hate communists and their system. I was naturally dismayed after moving here and finding the KMT had somehow snuggled up to the commies. I guess CKS should have just surrendered to Mao in the first place. The change in attitude is bewildering.
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