Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Teddoman » 17 May 2012, 23:04

TaipeiDawg wrote:The old 'you will just leave if there's a war' argument has been around for quite a long time and is pretty worn out by now. Anyway, all the fleeing foreigners would have to line up behind all the dual passport holding locals to leave Taiwan.

If this shite hits the fan, there won't be anybody checkin passports at the helipad :)

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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Feiren » 18 May 2012, 09:53

Formosa Fitness wrote:I always considered myself pro-KMT because I hate communists and their system. I was naturally dismayed after moving here and finding the KMT had somehow snuggled up to the commies. I guess CKS should have just surrendered to Mao in the first place. The change in attitude is bewildering.


No it isn't. The CCP and and the KMT are just evil twin brothers, with the CCP being the more efficient of the two. The only real dispute between them was who was going to enslave China. That argument has been won by the CCP. The KMT now needs to insinuate itself into the CCP's system to access the huge economic opportunities in China (like China is really going to allow this :roflmao: ) and, more importantly, to stay in power in Taiwan. The KMT needs the CCP badly.

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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 18 May 2012, 09:59

Feiren wrote:
Formosa Fitness wrote:I always considered myself pro-KMT because I hate communists and their system. I was naturally dismayed after moving here and finding the KMT had somehow snuggled up to the commies. I guess CKS should have just surrendered to Mao in the first place. The change in attitude is bewildering.


No it isn't. The CCP and and the KMT are just evil twin brothers, with the CCP being the more efficient of the two. The only real dispute between them was who was going to enslave China. That argument has been won by the CCP. The KMT now needs to insinuate itself into the CCP's system to access the huge economic opportunities in China (like China is really going to allow this :roflmao: ) and, more importantly, to stay in power in Taiwan. The KMT needs the CCP badly.


Precisely. The natural tendency to think that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" has often led people to mistakenly think that some pretty nasty regimes were okay simply because they weren't commies. That's what the Cold War was all about.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby TaipeiDawg » 18 May 2012, 11:39

Teddoman wrote:
TaipeiDawg wrote:The old 'you will just leave if there's a war' argument has been around for quite a long time and is pretty worn out by now. Anyway, all the fleeing foreigners would have to line up behind all the dual passport holding locals to leave Taiwan.

If this shite hits the fan, there won't be anybody checkin passports at the helipad :)
Haha, thanks for the reminder that the departure gate for Mei Guo Ren may be atop AIT - so bring your own ladder.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby fanglangzhe » 18 May 2012, 22:19

Formosa Fitness wrote:I always considered myself pro-KMT because I hate communists and their system. I was naturally dismayed after moving here and finding the KMT had somehow snuggled up to the commies. I guess CKS should have just surrendered to Mao in the first place. The change in attitude is bewildering.


Politics is very strange. If there is one group that should be fervently pro TI, it should be the Taiwan aborigines. Yet, aborigines historically support KMT and still do so today (if I'm not mistaken). As for the KMT and DPP, its the KMT and Communists who were enemies, DPP has no historical beef/grudge with the Communist party. Thus DPP should have taken a page from Henry Kissinger (not to mention Otto van Bismark, Cardinal Richelieu, etc) and allied with the Communists to destroy the KMT. That would be interesting.
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Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby headhonchoII » 19 May 2012, 10:10

How could the DPP ally with the Communists if their ultimate aim is independence?
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Teddoman » 19 May 2012, 21:38

baberenglish wrote:I thought this wasn't about mudslinging?
The original purpose of this was to answer the question of why foreigners seem to be anti-KMT.
I think most foreigners are anti-KMT but as for their 'green' aspirations that is a turkey shoot.
Why specifically anti-KMT?
1. History in Taiwan. 'Cash my cheque' was a leader not popular around the world. Mr. Peanut pocketed a large portion of 'aid' money from western countries over the years.
2. White Terror.
3. Vietnam. The US paid an arm and a leg to have that secret air base in Tainan. That money went towards Highway #1 and whatever left was put at Taoyuan airport. After that, with all the diplomatic bullshit that Madame Soong (Mrs. Happy Ending) created was enough for many countries to cut diplomatic ties in the 70's.
4. Wealth. Although many thought the KMT was one of the richest parties in the world, the derivatives for earning this $ were highly 'questionable'. Of course we have all heard about the 'stolen' asset fiasco, the 'wealth' that was brought over from Beijing/Shanghai and those wonderful opium factories in Cambodia that provided solid cash flow. To me they haven't done much over the years to create a solid revenue base. In my mind they are just living off of interest.
5. Genealogy. Old habits die hard. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
6. Unification. Please. Only if it pays well.

I would say #2 White Terror motivates the older expats or history inclined, as the tens of thousands of political killings orchestrated by the KMT apparatus makes it awfully hard to cozy up to the KMT. I'd wager there aren't many foreigners in Iraq would support the Ba'ath Party (Saddam Hussein's party). However, there are surely lots of young foreigners who are not aware of this history and more inclined to decide based on more contemporary issues. I'm sure that will only grow as the cultural memory of the White Terror fades.

fanglangzhe wrote:Yet another nuance to consider - it seems most Americans in Taiwan would identify themselves with the US Democratic Party rather than the Republican Party. But it should be Republicans who are more anti-Communist and thus more sympathetic to DPP's pro TI stance, not Democrats.

Yes, it's quite interesting that some Taiwanese living in the US identify with the Republican party for this reason, since they are basically single issue voters and don't care about social policy and stuff. The Republicans have always had a very pro-Taiwan bent in the Congress from what I've seen.

urodacus wrote:Now, if only Taiwan had had some politicians with balls and vision 40 years ago, when Carter recognised China as the legitimate rulers of China (which was totally correct).

I think the scrotum and testicles to which you are referring belonged to Tricky Dicky Nixon. But a rumor has it that Carter has testicles too.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby urodacus » 20 May 2012, 09:46

Teddoman wrote:
urodacus wrote:Now, if only Taiwan had had some politicians with balls and vision 40 years ago, when Carter recognised China as the legitimate rulers of China (which was totally correct).

I think the scrotum and testicles to which you are referring belonged to Tricky Dicky Nixon. But a rumor has it that Carter has testicles too.



Well, Nixon started the ball rollong with his historic visit in 1972 but it was only during the Carter administration in 1979 that the PRC was officially recognised.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Dog's_Breakfast » 20 May 2012, 09:47

Teddoman wrote:
TaipeiDawg wrote:The old 'you will just leave if there's a war' argument has been around for quite a long time and is pretty worn out by now. Anyway, all the fleeing foreigners would have to line up behind all the dual passport holding locals to leave Taiwan.

If this shite hits the fan, there won't be anybody checkin passports at the helipad :)


If Taiwan were to declare independence, I don't think that China's response would be immediate full-scale military invasion. I'd expect a well thought-out strategy of intimidation which would undermine Taiwan's will. Very easy to do, in my opinion, since the average Taiwanese is not ready to tolerate hardships.

How to do it exactly? First, torpedo or missile attack on a couple of Taiwanese-flagged container ships at the mouth of Kaohsiung and Keelung (Jilong) harbors. Publicly announce that in the future, all container ships trying to enter the harbors will be destroyed. Foreign carriers will not take the risk, and will pull all their ships out. Taiwan's export-oriented economy plummets. With no oil and coal flowing into Taiwan, the electric power plants (other than nuclear ones) have to shut down, plunging most of the island into darkness. (Note to you anti-nuke folks, I told you so). This shuts down most of the manufacturing, railways and highway transport. Now, just sit back and wait while panicked wealthy Taiwanese and foreign English teachers (like most of the Taiwan independence advocates here on Forumosa) panic to get out of Taiwan with all their money. Foreigners may get to jump the queue on the Taiwanese because some foreign governments will provide "evacuation flights" only for their citizens. I know for a fact that AIT has a plan in place to do this should the need arise (I know the local guy here who is in charge of this).

China may speed things up by, every few days, lobbing a missile someplace into a city, even without an explosive warhead. Just do it for the psychological effect. Hit Taipei 101, for instance, without blowing up the building, but announce publicly that if Taiwan doesn't surrender soon, they are going to arm the missiles with explosives or maybe chemical weapons. Panic ensues. Food grows scarce due to hoarding and lack of imports. The streets are no longer safe.

Will the USA come riding to the rescue, as the Taiwanese expect? I doubt it very much. For all the bluster, the USA won't risk the enormous economic consequences of having China cut off all exports to the USA. What is more important to US politicians, freedom for Taiwan or profits for Wal-Mart? I rest my case.
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Re: Most Foreigners are anti-KMT?

Postby Teddoman » 21 May 2012, 02:56

urodacus wrote:Well, Nixon started the ball rollong with his historic visit in 1972 but it was only during the Carter administration in 1979 that the PRC was officially recognised.

Yes but in terms of cajones, I always thought Nixon got credit for it. I vaguely remember something from a book saying that only a Republican could get away with Sino-US rapproachment, much like only a Southern Democrat could get away with the first Civil Rights Act. I'm sure it took a while to formalize (plus obviously Nixon's term ended prematurely) but I thought the credit goes to Nixon/Kissenger.
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