KMT upgrade plan blatently political

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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby Big Fluffy Matthew » 25 Jun 2009, 23:01

Red Ken was elected Mayor of London on May 4th 2000, but the GLA only came into existence on June 3rd. The Mayor and Assembly had been elected for a month before they had any power.

Would that have been so hard?
Er.... thingy.
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby Mawvellous » 25 Jun 2009, 23:10

cfimages wrote:
Actually Zhanghua's case is not so out there. Yuanlin (the town in Zhanghua not the county, Yunlin) is the biggest town in Taiwan and is not that far short of having the population numbers to become a city on its own - it has almost as many as both Hualian and Taidong. It'd make more sense to merge it with Zhanghua city though - together they'd be about the same as Hsinchu (Xinzhu).


Well on that basis KMT Taoyuan also had a very good case.

The point is that Taipei, Taizhong, and Gaoxiong are the three major cities in Taiwan, and all have been upgraded.
Just behind, decision deferred is Tainan, which deserves consideration for its cultural significance.

In the next tier are places like Taoyuan and Xinzhu (KMT) or Zhanghua (DPP) which do not meet the requirements for upgrading.

Population figures here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ta ... population

All seems quite fair to me (I thought this was DPP policy anyway).
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby Mawvellous » 25 Jun 2009, 23:14

Big Fluffy Matthew wrote:Red Ken was elected Mayor of London on May 4th 2000, but the GLA only came into existence on June 3rd. The Mayor and Assembly had been elected for a month before they had any power.

Would that have been so hard?


A one year gap might have been more problematic.

Talking of Red Ken, remember when Thatcher simply abolished the GLC because it opposed her government? All part of the normal political manoeuvring going on. In contrast the KMT upgrade plan seems like a fuss about nothing.
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby Lord Lucan » 26 Jun 2009, 01:34

sandman wrote:
If you hold the people of this country in such contempt, why the %^@ are you here?

Money. Family. Easy life.
You also seem to have the misguided notion that normal people born and bred here don't share my views of the three-ring circus that passes for "politics" here. WRONG, yet again. Daft money-grubbing arseholes is what these people are. Completely and utterly amoral and apolitical, out ONLY for what they can grab to line their pockets. And the people that actually believe one side is any better than the other? Sorry, I'd better stop there before you gulp too much air. Take a deep breath, ludahai. Swallowing air like that only makes you fart in the elevator and contrary to what you might think, it doesn't matter if you stare at the ceiling, whistle, or pretend to read important text messages on your phone, the others KNOW its you that dealt it. And you KNOW they're thinking to themsleves: "Damn greenies! Can't even control their own bowels!"
Dude, I've lived here for most of my adult life. My social circle is huge, including rice farmers, taxi drivers and media workers, up to upper-mid-level government officials. My views on Taiwanese politics are formed largely on the basis of the opinions of these people, ALL of whom are Taiwanese. So you can jump off your high horse of silly irrelevant nonsense about "loving Taiwan enough" or whatever it is you're trying to imply. It doesn't wash. Not with me, not with the thinking people who've lived all their lives here, either.


sandman wrote:
ludahai wrote:
cfimages wrote:The DPP would have done the very same thing if they could have. For that matter, pretty much every political party in every democratic country in the world would do the same.

Sandman is right - the politicians of this country, no matter what party, are beyond pathetic.


Would have - could have. Rubbish. DID the DPP engineer something like this?

Yes. But no matter. As always, the argument, such that it is, which isn't much, has once again degenerated into a wankfest about how to fucking spell, for chrissakes.
A bunch of fucking inept clowns, no matter what colour of baggy pants they're wearing. Taiwanese politics is an absolute fucking JOKE. Anyone taking it even remotely seriously needs their heads seeing to.
Make money, and let the loudmouthed ignorant arseholes who want to be on the evening news do their THANG. But never for even a second imagine that these pricks in ANY shape or form represent ANYTHING other than the desire to screw their taxpaying counterparts out of their hard-earned money.These are the views of an average Taiwanese.


Hilarious!

To quote Skunk Anansie:

Yes it's fucking political
Everythings political!
Yes it's fucking satirical
Everythings satirical!
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby ludahai » 26 Jun 2009, 06:32

cfimages wrote:
Actually Zhanghua's case is not so out there. Yuanlin (the town in Zhanghua not the county, Yunlin) is the biggest town in Taiwan and is not that far short of having the population numbers to become a city on its own - it has almost as many as both Hualian and Taidong. It'd make more sense to merge it with Zhanghua city though - together they'd be about the same as Hsinchu (Xinzhu).


FYI - Zhanghua city is a part of Zhanghua county.
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby ludahai » 26 Jun 2009, 06:34

Mawvellous wrote:Well on that basis KMT Taoyuan also had a very good case.

The point is that Taipei, Taizhong, and Gaoxiong are the three major cities in Taiwan, and all have been upgraded.
Just behind, decision deferred is Tainan, which deserves consideration for its cultural significance.

In the next tier are places like Taoyuan and Xinzhu (KMT) or Zhanghua (DPP) which do not meet the requirements for upgrading.

Population figures here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ta ... population

All seems quite fair to me (I thought this was DPP policy anyway).


Except that this will result in LESS funds going to the agricultural areas that need it most. It will also resulted in unelected extension of terms of KMT leaders, both of whom would not win in December were there elections (one because he is not popular and the other because of term limits) Of course, the fact that certain Bluebots aren't concerned about that fact is telling about how they feel about the rule of law and the spirit of regular elections.
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby ludahai » 26 Jun 2009, 06:56

Mawvellous wrote:Who else applied?


As far as I know, it was Zhanghua County as well as Yunlin and Jiayi Counties applying for a merger and upgrade.

But of the DPP places that applied, only Tainan had a serious case. Or are you seriously suggesting that Zhanghua and Yunlin should have been upgraded?


Actually, this whole "upgrade" nonsense is silly. There should be an entire administrative boundary reorganization of the country that is systematic and not ad hoc as this move is.

So far the 4 biggest cities/counties have been upgraded: Taipei City, Taipei Country, Gaoxiong City/Country, Taizhong City/County. The decision on the fifth largest (Tainan City/ County) has been deferred. What exactly is "unfair".


Again, my biggest complaint is that it extends Jason Hu's tenure to a ninth year without an election and extends the Taipei magistrates term one more year despite the fact that he is unpopular in the county. Still, this kind of ad hoc move rather than a systematic administrative reform shows that the Ma administration only likes window dressing and not actually looking at the inequities created by the present system - and is acually only further exacerbating it.

Zhanghua/Yunlin metropolis should have been recognized? :roflmao:


Actually, the proposal was for Yunlin/Jiayi

Yes but merging Gaoxiong City and Country will make it almost impossible for the KMT to win there. The DPP should still have a chance in Taizhong if they get their shit together (still looking unlikely). Out of the 4 upgraded municipalities, only Taipei City looks unattainable for them.


They weren't going to win in Kaohsiung City anytime in the near future. THe KMT reached its high water mark over the past couple of years and they still couldn't wrest it from the DPP.

So what, he will probably still loose. The KMT's only hope is probably to find another candidate. They know that the chance of the DPP controlling Taipei County in the future is very high, but they still upgraded


Of course, you have no problem with extending the term by one year AFTER the election four years ago - without any consulting from the voters. They ran for a four year term, not a five year term. Then, to change the rules of hte game six months before the scheduled election - this is against the spirit of regular democratic elections.

The one extra year is necessary to bring the election dates into line, or do you think the government should go to the trouble and expense to hold supplementary elections? I'm sure the DPP would have done exactly the same thing.


No, why can't they have elections at the same time as the rest of the country? Here in Taichung, we already had good candidates from both parties preparing to run. We would have had a really good race down here. How, politicians who had been preparing for a race in Taichung had the race pulled out from under them. This is the type of behavior that happens in a one-party state, not in a genuine democratic republic.

As for reorganization, I would like so see something along these lines:

1. Merge Keelong (Jilong) City with Taipei County
2. Taipei City
3. Taoyuan County
4. Merge Hsinchu county and city
5. Miaoli county merged either with Hsinchu or Taichung (or parts merged with both)
6. Taichung County/City with Caotun township in Nantou County
7. Merge Zhanghua with Yunlin with Nantou City in Nantou County
8. Merge Jiayi City and County
9. Merge Tainan city/county
10. Merge Kaohsiung City/county
11. Merge Pingdong and Taidong Counties
12. Merge Yilan and Hualian counties
13. Take aboriginal townships in Nantou, Taichung, Hsinchu, Tainan, etc. and make them into an autonomous region
14. Penghu as is
15. Merge the islands offshore that are formally part of Fujian Province into a single county.

Wouldn't this make much more sense than the ad hoc process that is going on now?
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby cfimages » 26 Jun 2009, 08:01

Mawvellous wrote:
cfimages wrote:
Actually Zhanghua's case is not so out there. Yuanlin (the town in Zhanghua not the county, Yunlin) is the biggest town in Taiwan and is not that far short of having the population numbers to become a city on its own - it has almost as many as both Hualian and Taidong. It'd make more sense to merge it with Zhanghua city though - together they'd be about the same as Hsinchu (Xinzhu) (Xinzhu).


Well on that basis KMT Taoyuan also had a very good case.

The point is that Taipei, Taizhong, and Gaoxiong are the three major cities in Taiwan, and all have been upgraded.
Just behind, decision deferred is Tainan, which deserves consideration for its cultural significance.

In the next tier are places like Taoyuan and Xinzhu (KMT) or Zhanghua (DPP) which do not meet the requirements for upgrading.

Population figures here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ta ... population

All seems quite fair to me (I thought this was DPP policy anyway).


I think I misunderstood - I thought it was upgrading counties to city status. My bad.

Also, Zhanghua voted KMT last election.
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby cfimages » 26 Jun 2009, 08:02

ludahai wrote:
cfimages wrote:
Actually Zhanghua's case is not so out there. Yuanlin (the town in Zhanghua not the county, Yunlin) is the biggest town in Taiwan and is not that far short of having the population numbers to become a city on its own - it has almost as many as both Hualian and Taidong. It'd make more sense to merge it with Zhanghua city though - together they'd be about the same as Hsinchu (Xinzhu) (Xinzhu).


FYI - Zhanghua city is a part of Zhanghua county.


Yes I'm fully aware of that, although it's a separate govt for the city.
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Re: KMT upgrade plan blatently political

Postby Mawvellous » 26 Jun 2009, 10:12

ludahai wrote:
As far as I know, it was Zhanghua County as well as Yunlin and Jiayi Counties applying for a merger and upgrade.


And you conveniently forget Taoyuan county, population by far the highest of those rejected for upgrade, solid KMT, mayor Zhu Lilun, senior KMT figure.

Actually, this whole "upgrade" nonsense is silly. There should be an entire administrative boundary reorganization of the country that is systematic and not ad hoc as this move is.


Maybe there is a good argument for it, but could any administration push it through? As it is Ma ran on a policy of "three cities, 15 counties"-apart from the fact that Taipei City and County have not yet been merged, this is exactly what happens. I also thought "upgrades" were DPP policy.

Again, my biggest complaint is that it extends Jason Hu's tenure to a ninth year without an election and extends the Taipei magistrates term one more year despite the fact that he is unpopular in the county. Still, this kind of ad hoc move rather than a systematic administrative reform shows that the Ma administration only likes window dressing and not actually looking at the inequities created by the present system - and is acually only further exacerbating it.


Do you have any better solutions? If the election is this year, then they next mayor would have to serve a longer term. These kinds of things happen in democracies all the time.

Actually, the proposal was for Yunlin/Jiayi


Even more ridiculous then.

They weren't going to win in Kaohsiung City anytime in the near future. THe KMT reached its high water mark over the past couple of years and they still couldn't wrest it from the DPP.


So now we have:
Taipei City: Solid Blue
Taipei County, Taizhong: Could go either way
Gaoxiong: Solid Green

Of course, you have no problem with extending the term by one year AFTER the election four years ago - without any consulting from the voters. They ran for a four year term, not a five year term. Then, to change the rules of hte game six months before the scheduled election - this is against the spirit of regular democratic elections.


No, why can't they have elections at the same time as the rest of the country? Here in Taichung, we already had good candidates from both parties preparing to run. We would have had a really good race down here. How, politicians who had been preparing for a race in Taichung had the race pulled out from under them. This is the type of behavior that happens in a one-party state, not in a genuine democratic republic.


But then the next term would be one year longer, municipal and county election dates are different.

As for reorganization, I would like so see something along these lines:

1. Merge Keelong (Jilong) (Jilong) City with Taipei County
2. Taipei City
3. Taoyuan County
4. Merge Hsinchu (Xinzhu) county and city
5. Miaoli county merged either with Hsinchu (Xinzhu) or Taichung (or parts merged with both)
6. Taichung County/City with Caotun township in Nantou County
7. Merge Zhanghua with Yunlin with Nantou City in Nantou County
8. Merge Jiayi City and County
9. Merge Tainan city/county
10. Merge Kaohsiung City/county
11. Merge Pingdong and Taidong Counties
12. Merge Yilan and Hualian counties
13. Take aboriginal townships in Nantou, Taichung, Hsinchu (Xinzhu), Tainan, etc. and make them into an autonomous region
14. Penghu as is
15. Merge the islands offshore that are formally part of Fujian Province into a single county.

Wouldn't this make much more sense than the ad hoc process that is going on now?


Why? Because you think it looks better? I can't see how it is any more logical that the present system.
This kind of reorganization is very difficult to push through. It involves the redistribution of resources, and some people may even loose their positions if governments are merged. People are likely to get upset whatever you do.

As far as I can see, the current arrangement will ensure that there is a more equitable distribution of resources between the three major cities in Taiwan.
As for the rural areas, there are definitely major problems. They have basically been neglected for far too long in the rush to industrialization and urbanization. That was part of the cost of the "economic miracle". I know some people are also very concerned about a new law regarding rural development that is being pushed through. Will this reorganization mean less money for rural areas? I don't know-do you have any forecasts?
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