Re: Heated debate turns into mass brawl at Taiwan parliament

[ironsnow]

This law extends incumbent local politicians with an additional term without proper elections. These politicians already got 1 year extension due to the recent promotion from counties to municipalities. With this extension, they will be in power for 9 years (and who knows what will happen after the 9th year) instead of the promised term of 4 years. It also deprives the appointment right of newly elected mayors.

By contradicting the basic commonality principle of legislation, this law also creates inconsistencies between the existing municipalities and the newly promoted municipalities. Kaohsiung City will even face a mix of two systems because it will merge the nearby Kaohsiung county.

[Cueball]

No, that's not the point, you don't use fisticuffs to solve something like this, that's not very "democratic" now, is it? No matter how wrong the new law is, this isn't exactly the way you prevent it from being passed, is it?

Imagine this situation. You are the head of the Opposition in Sweden and you're expecting to do well in an upcoming election, probably taking control of the government. The ruling Swedish party thinks "bollocks to this, we're not going to fight and lose the next election - we'll just extend the life of this legislative" and gets ready to enact a law accordingly. You know that the courts, Police and armed forces won't or can't do anything. It is highly unlikely that the public will do anything other maybe protest a bit. The ruling party has made its mind up and is closed to negotiation.

But you have a chance to stop the law being made by blocking a vote. You have to use force, though no one will actually get hurt. What do you do?

If you let the law go through, you care nothing for democracy just the technical process. If you block the law by using force, you can't disagree with what the DPP were trying to do.

How come things like this doesn't happen in other democratic countries when there's a vote on a new law being passed?

1. You're talking complete rubbish. Fights happen in other countries' legislatives, including South Korea's and Japan's - i.e. all the other democratic East Asian states.
2. Can you show me an example of a democratic country that passed a law as undemocratic as this? It's not done for fun, it's an action of last resort.

But then again, judging by your comment, violence is ok, as long as it's used the right way...

So if some guy jumped you on the street and started beating the crap out of you, you'd lie there prostrate in the hope someone else would do something about it? Or would you defend yourself?

Don't talk crap, of course violence is ok if used the right way! And it's not like anyone got badly hurt in what happened in the legislative. Don't be such a wimp.

[TheLostSwede]

You know, be that way, I'm sure you make loads of friends being a total utter prick

[Cueball]

You know, be that way, I'm sure you make loads of friends being a total utter prick

I'm only a prick when interacting with morally-bankrupt idiots.

[Mother Theresa]

Swede's right. The international media didn't pick up this story because they're in bed with the KMT. The international media don't give a shit about the KMT. They picked up the story because, despite Taiwan's advances in LED technology and public transportation, the country's highest level politicians have repeatedly demonstrated that they're a pathetic joke.

The legislative yuan, which in most developed nations would comprise well-educated, fairly rational, adults who engage in debate, discussion and fairly civil decision-making processes, in Taiwan are a bunch of hooligans with no self-restraint, common decency or regard for laws and procedures. They're just a bunch of kids playing at politics. . . poorly. So what if Japan and Korean sometimes do the same thing? Same goes for them in such cases. There's no excuse for it; it's just a total breakdown of democratic process because Taiwan's society (both parties) are not developed enough yet to behave properly.

Fifty years ago they were driving buffalos, today they drive mercedes, perhaps some day they'll learn how to drive a democracy.

[TainanCowboy]

I'm only a prick when interacting with morally-bankrupt idiots.

Ahh well...another DPP supporter chimes in with political logic extraordinaire.... !

Mother Theresa is the sage of wisdom with his comment. There is plenty of shameful blame to both sides in this sewer-mix of yokels.

People deserve the politicians they elect.

[Cueball]

Swede's right. The international media didn't pick up this story because they're in bed with the KMT. The international media don't give a shit about the KMT. They picked up the story because, despite Taiwan's advances in LED technology and public transportation, the country's highest level politicians have repeatedly demonstrated that they're a pathetic joke.

1. Swede didn't pass comment on that, all he said was you can't use force in the legislative because it's not democratic.
2. I didn't say it was reported because of the KMT, I said because the international media frequently gets its lead from the KMT media they'll focus on what happened and not why it happened. There's an important difference. And from what I've read that's exactly what they've done - and of course only having a quote from the KMT.

The legislative yuan, which in most developed nations would comprise well-educated, fairly rational, adults who engage in debate, discussion and fairly civil decision-making processes, in Taiwan are a bunch of hooligans with no self-restraint, common decency or regard for laws and procedures.

Even I would acknowledge that most of the time the legislative resolves matters without resorting to physical conflict. It shouldn't happen at all, but that doesn't mean it is never justified. As I said to Swede, if you have a choice between accepting an incredibly undemocratic and unconstitutional law that could easily sabotage or swing important elections and stalling it by creating a physical fillibuster, I find it hard to believe that a majority of people would not consider the latter.

The reason people like you and me can be all high and mighty about this is because in the countries we were born in you simply don't get national-level legislatives passing laws like this. Or if it happened we could be sure it would be stopped one way or another. We're lucky, whereas Taiwan is saddled with an emerging democracy where the incumbant KMT will do anything to stop losing power (including running over policemen) and the Opposition DPP won't just accept the status-quo. I doubt this would have happened if the DPP were fairly confident the Supreme Court would strike this down and that decision would have effect. But from form they will:

1. Turn the petition down.
2. Support it but in a vague way that doesn't require a change in the law on a timescale that makes a difference.
3. Support it but the legislative will drag its feet and again nothing will change on a timescale that matters.

In many ways the DPP is in between a rock and a hard place, as it is expected to act as if it were in a democracy yet the cards are and have always been firmly stacked against it - so in many ways it isn't in a democracy.

I'm only a prick when interacting with morally-bankrupt idiots.

Ahh well...another DPP supporter chimes in with political logic extraordinaire....

TC, is it ever possible for you to not label someone as a DPP supporter just because they have something good to say about the DPP or won't jump on the bandwagon and lay into it? If someone calls me a prick I have a right to respond in kind. Or maybe that only applies for DPP critics.....

I tell you what I do support the DPP in this case because if it happened in my home I'd want the Opposition to do the same thing, fight tooth & nail for democracy. That the DPP have done this thing too often and for the wrong reasons in the past isn't relevant in my view. This time they were justified.

I say this as someone who actually once notionally supported the KMT (and before the stuff over Chen's corruption emerged).

People deserve the politicians they elect.

What if they voted for the other guy? Or they and a majority of other people voted for the other guy but that didn't count for anything because the victor cheated and it wasn't detected because the Police/prosecutors/whoever supported him/her? Or they did vote for the politician but they left their mind-reading devices at home and didn't realise that this person would help push through a law that would stop them being able to choose their local leaders directly or indirectly?

People deserve the politicians they elect only if it is clear what that person will do once elected or would be clear to anyone else. They can't be held responsible for those politicians doing completely unexpected things, and if I'd told you in 2008 that if the KMT won the legislative election they'd ensure that 50+ mayors, overwhelmingly KMT I believe, could stay on until 2014 despite being elected in 2005 I'm sure you'd have laughed and branded me a DPP loonie or some such.

[cfimages]

Lost Swede is right. Fighting in the legislature is never right.

If the opposition want to make/change laws, then they can get organized, campaign and get elected to office. Then make all the changes they like. Using force is just making a mockery of the very democracy they claim to uphold.

[TainanCowboy]

Cue -
If you defend these amateur nutjobs then you are choosing sides. They are pathetic and deserve the shame they incurr by their actions.

I, personally, am neither for the DPP or the KMT. But since I live here on the island I do pay attention to what the current political climate is - and it is pathetic on both sides.

It looks like the KMT is pulling a fast one on the DPP. How did they do it? The DPP was caught sleeping on the job. Poor political gamesmanship.
How do they remedy this slight? By playing the game with more skill and craft than their opponents. But such simple logic as this doesn't register in their brains. They choose to act like a bunch of rice worm asshats and start school girl looking fights. Ridiculous.

Where are the statesmen? Where are the people who actually know how to use the legislative skills and laws on the books to deal with shit such as this?
One would think they are in the Yuan...but they aren't. Instead you have a bunch of mouth breathing vest wearing sign waving dipshits playing to the local media scum.

Well, that may sell to Ah Chung back in the hood but it sure doesn't accomplish much as far as the national rep of Taiwan or giving the people of the island effective legislative representation.

And that latter point is what I, personally, think is what they are supposed to be doing. But hey, thats just my opinion.

If you feel that the anarchy route is the most effective and intelligent way to go fine...just remember...anarchy means violence...and in violent politics people get hurt. Is that what you want to see?

[Battery9]

All I knew of Taiwan before I came here was the fighting in parliament. It's always on the news there, with the newsreaders giggling. Crappy toys and physical fights and finger pointing in parliament..that's all I knew! Remember the throwing shoe incident?