April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby Omniloquacious » 27 Apr 2010, 16:41

sandman wrote:Sounds to me like you actually trust those grinning venal corrupt fools to do what's right and what's best for the country and people and economy! :roflmao:


No, I never did trust A-bian and his sidekicks to do any such thing.

But when I was working for Tsai at the MAC, I did trust her to do so insofar as she could under the restrictions placed on her by Chen.

I would never have trusted Lien or Soong to do so if they had gained the presidency, but I do trust Ma to do so, and am highly satisfied with what he has achieved thus far in spite of all the obstacles placed in his way.

If Tsai becomes president in 2012, I hope she will once again start to act in accordance with her conscience and the best interests of Taiwan rather than acting as she judges most likely to please the rump membership of the DPP.
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby sandman » 27 Apr 2010, 16:45

but I do trust Ma to do so,

God almighty!
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby headhonchoII » 27 Apr 2010, 16:54

Omniloquacious wrote:
Okami wrote:Omni, you are really scaring me. The idea that ECFA is in our best interests but we don't need to know any details is really demeaning.


The electorate only need to know the details when those details have been hammered out. The hammering-out process is highly sensitive (as is always the case with such negotiations, wherever they take place in the world), and can be carried through more successfully behind closed doors. When the terms of agreement have been reached, the general public will be informed, will have full opportunity to discuss and debate them, and will be able to let their legislators know whether they wish the agreement to be ratified in the Legislative Yuan. If the terms are bad, and legislators are persuaded by their constituents that it is not in Taiwan's or their constituents' best interests to ratify the agreement, it will not be ratified and will not take effect.

That's how democracy works. I don't see any flaws in it.


+1

As anybody who has ever been involved in negotiation knows, you cannot reach agreement if one side is changing their requirements on a daily basis. The DPP would make a big scene about everything, crying and fighting on TV. ITS ALL FOR SHOW FOLKS, IT DOESN'T BENEFIT ANYBODY. Almost all the politicians are corrupt. Ma and Tsai are two that I trust to be pretty clean. Don't take a side because you are green or blue, that's a big mistake to make.

The public WILL have it's chance to discuss this, anything that creates a furore WILL be shot down. American beef anyone?
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby redwagon » 27 Apr 2010, 17:11

headhonchoII wrote:The public WILL have it's chance to discuss this, anything that creates a furore WILL be shot down. American beef anyone?

Matong has spent his entire career working against democratic choice and openness in government, spying on those espouse democracy for Taiwan and assisting dictators and heads of the secret police. While in office he has basically failed to follow through on any of his promises and said nothing while the LY ramrodded any number of unpopular bills through without any regards for public opinion or that of the opposition. Through this whole ECFA negotiation process he has fought against holding any public referendum on the matter and his henchmen have been indicating that their standard for assuming the public supports the signing has been slipping ever lower. This is a very clear indication that they intend to sign regardless of what the public actually wants. What in the world leads you believe that the public is going to get the chance to veto the agreement, some vague hint in the media? Did a supposed insider like Omni whisper in your ear?
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby Omniloquacious » 27 Apr 2010, 17:32

redwagon wrote: While in office he has basically failed to follow through on any of his promises


The keystone of his agenda was to improve relations with China. That is what he was voted into office to achieve. He has done exactly as he promised. Taiwan has benefited greatly, and the international community has stood up together to applaud him for it.
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby headhonchoII » 27 Apr 2010, 17:43

redwagon wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:The public WILL have it's chance to discuss this, anything that creates a furore WILL be shot down. American beef anyone?

Matong has spent his entire career working against democratic choice and openness in government, spying on those espouse democracy for Taiwan and assisting dictators and heads of the secret police. While in office he has basically failed to follow through on any of his promises and said nothing while the LY ramrodded any number of unpopular bills through without any regards for public opinion or that of the opposition. Through this whole ECFA negotiation process he has fought against holding any public referendum on the matter and his henchmen have been indicating that their standard for assuming the public supports the signing has been slipping ever lower. This is a very clear indication that they intend to sign regardless of what the public actually wants. What in the world leads you believe that the public is going to get the chance to veto the agreement, some vague hint in the media? Did a supposed insider like Omni whisper in your ear?


Conspiracy theories. I told you look at the American beef example. Taiwanese media are very capable of whipping up hysteria, if there is anything in there that would cause a lot of damage they will be on it like lightning. You have your mind polluted with anti-KMT rhetoric rather than look at the bill on its merits.
They almost all have dodgy histories, but you know what, it's effective and positive actions and deeds that count instead of political chicanery. Effective ACTION, not TALK. Don't look at the suit, look at the man! I would vote for the neighbour's cat if I thought it could do a bit of good, so would a lot of Taiwanese at this stage.

People involved in think-tanks get polarised, if you are in one you should watch out for positive reinforcement and group-think taking over.
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby Kea » 27 Apr 2010, 18:17

redwagon wrote:[b]Matong [/b]has spent his entire career ...

His name is Ma Ying-jeou, and he is the President of Taiwan. Show some respect at least.
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby sandman » 27 Apr 2010, 18:24

Kea wrote:
redwagon wrote:[b]Matong [/b]has spent his entire career ...

Hi name is Ma Ying-jeou, and he is the President of Taiwan. Show some respect at least.

Quite right! You'd NEVER hear me refer to Gordon Cuntybaws Broon, our Dear Supreme Great Unelected Leader, for example! Or whatever it is they call Bush or Obama or Putin or whoever. Get over yourself. He's a politician, therefore a total slimeball and therefore fair game.
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby Kea » 27 Apr 2010, 18:37

sandman wrote:
Kea wrote:
redwagon wrote:[b]Matong [/b]has spent his entire career ...

His name is Ma Ying-jeou, and he is the President of Taiwan. Show some respect at least.

Quite right! You'd NEVER hear me refer to Gordon Cuntybaws Broon, our Dear Supreme Great Unelected Leader, for example! Or whatever it is they call Bush or Obama or Putin or whoever. Get over yourself. He's a politician, therefore a total slimeball and therefore fair game.

Heh, point taken about the rest. It's a pretty safe default position ("He's a politician, therefore a total slimeball and therefore fair game".). However, I'll stick with respecting Ma as better than most of the rest, and give him the respect as President and time necessary to do a good job. Thanks for the advice.
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Re: April 25 debate: Ma Yingjiu vs Cai Yingwen

Postby redwagon » 27 Apr 2010, 19:20

Thank god these Matong-worshippers cannot vote.
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