dating advice for white girls?

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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby NonTocareLeTete » 24 Nov 2011, 10:56

golf wrote:
Gao Bohan wrote:I can't even count the numbers of threads where female posters have derided Taiwanese men as nerdy girly momma's boys. It's little mystery to me why Western girls have trouble dating in Taiwan. Honestly, what advice can possibly be offered to ladies not interested in virtually the entire male population of the island?

Western people's definition: Asian men who value and respect their parents = girly momma's boys. But the situation is changing. Gigi Leung (a HK singer & actress)'s Spanish husband bent his knees in front of his parents in the wedding, which shocked many guests in the wedding. You've got to know how we treat our old people and why. That's our nation's tradition, social connection, and family affection.

I don't think you'll find a white girl, or any girl, who objects to a man being respectful and appreciative of his parents. It's just tough when a guy is in his late 20's or early 30's and still lives with mom and dad, mom still does his laundry and cooks all his meals, and parents still make major life decisions for him. It's not that that's necessarily wrong - though it may seem like it to some - it's just that it would be very difficult for a western girl to date a guy like that. For example, I moved out at 19 (and lived away from home from 16-17) started doing my own laundry at age 8 (had to stand on a chair, but I did it) and started cooking a meal a week for the family at the same age (not always edible...) and I've lived in two foreign countries for significant amounts of time. I can't fathom living with someone who hadn't had similar life experiences. Also I don't want the brunt of the household chores to fall to me when I'm making my own money :)
Still, there are lots of hot local men, and so many of them don't fit the above description. My difficulty with dating the local men would have more to do with communication and other cultural differences.
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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby golf » 29 Nov 2011, 01:25

NonTocareLeTete wrote:
golf wrote:
Gao Bohan wrote:I can't even count the numbers of threads where female posters have derided Taiwanese men as nerdy girly momma's boys. It's little mystery to me why Western girls have trouble dating in Taiwan. Honestly, what advice can possibly be offered to ladies not interested in virtually the entire male population of the island?

Western people's definition: Asian men who value and respect their parents = girly momma's boys. But the situation is changing. Gigi Leung (a HK singer & actress)'s Spanish husband bent his knees in front of his parents in the wedding, which shocked many guests in the wedding. You've got to know how we treat our old people and why. That's our nation's tradition, social connection, and family affection.

I don't think you'll find a white girl, or any girl, who objects to a man being respectful and appreciative of his parents. It's just tough when a guy is in his late 20's or early 30's and still lives with mom and dad, mom still does his laundry and cooks all his meals, and parents still make major life decisions for him. It's not that that's necessarily wrong - though it may seem like it to some - it's just that it would be very difficult for a western girl to date a guy like that. For example, I moved out at 19 (and lived away from home from 16-17) started doing my own laundry at age 8 (had to stand on a chair, but I did it) and started cooking a meal a week for the family at the same age (not always edible...) and I've lived in two foreign countries for significant amounts of time. I can't fathom living with someone who hadn't had similar life experiences. Also I don't want the brunt of the household chores to fall to me when I'm making my own money :)
Still, there are lots of hot local men, and so many of them don't fit the above description. My difficulty with dating the local men would have more to do with communication and other cultural differences.

Let me tell a story that comes to the focal point of of this reply. A UK girl who works in a mental disorder hospital once noticed and asked in a forum why there are much less asians among those metal disorder patients of minor ethnic groups. I answered her there are some reasons for this situation: 1. Family support; 2. Feel of shame to seek medical help; 2. Supports from religeous groups, specially Buddhists' groups; etc. I think the support given from families is the most important to deal with the mental problems. That requires strong family affection and connection not only not to give up the patients, but also always give encouragement to the patients.

Except from some bastards spoiled by their parents, our common idea is: "how long our parents take care of us when we are young, how long we will take care of them when they are old;" and it is our men's job. We take our responsibility that the society assumes is right. But this is unacceptable to many western girls. After wedding we call our mothers-in-law just "mom," but for western people it's very hard to do that, either. That's how our family affection and connection work. So I gradually think it is the social values that hinder successful dating or marriage for western women and local men, not just cultural differences. I also know a few white girls who were raised by their single mothers. They seem to be more open for accetping relationships with Asian men. That's proves my observation too.
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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby golf » 29 Nov 2011, 01:45

Ryan the third wrote:
golf wrote:
Gao Bohan wrote:I can't even count the numbers of threads where female posters have derided Taiwanese men as nerdy girly momma's boys. It's little mystery to me why Western girls have trouble dating in Taiwan. Honestly, what advice can possibly be offered to ladies not interested in virtually the entire male population of the island?

Western people's definition: Asian men who value and respect their parents = girly momma's boys. But the situation is changing. Gigi Leung (a HK singer & actress)'s Spanish husband bent his knees in front of his parents in the wedding, which shocked many guests in the wedding. You've got to know how we treat our old people and why. That's our nation's tradition, social connection, and family affection.


Yeah, and dont forget those tens of thousands years of great cultural history that is so awesome and that we westeners will never be able to understand...

If there were not Persian people's invention of glass, there is no modern world like now. If there were no Chinese people's invention of paper, gun powder, and compass, there is no modern world like now. If there is no industrial revolution British people had initiated, there is no modern world like this. The world is formed by common endeavors, not by one people or one nation. It's because western technology prevails more in the modern world, so western people share more honor for now. In the future, there will be an epoch in which middle eastern and african countries are dominant, because they are the major exporters of solar energy when fossil feuls are run up and nobody likes nukes. Anyway in the long run, the world will just become uniformly developed, because nobody likes to be poor forever!
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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby chris1234 » 06 May 2012, 00:14

I think people make this too complicated. If a guy is confident in himself/ dedicated/ willing to learn through practic enough to sit through all the K-12 school cramming I hear about, than you can train him. I've helped a lot of people become more confidend, assertive, etc. Find a guy that's a nice guy. Then just work him on everything else. Tell him how you like it when he does A. Then tell him how turned on you get when he does B. Tell him how C makes you feel. Tell him you want to brag to the girls back home that he does D. Tell him when you were shopping you had a fantasy that he would do E because he is so good at F. Before you know it, you'll have a TW guy doing all kinds of things that you never imagined, he'll think he's the best lover ever, and he won't be shy about doing things in the relationship. Set up an environment where it's okay for him/ encouraged to try new things/ ask for things also. No one has done G to me before. I really like how you thought of H, that made me feel how passionate you were for me (whatever, you can phrase that better). If he says something that's off putting or texts too much, focus the correction in a less threatening/ more accepted manner by explaining it as a matter of translation or learning about a new culture (in the USA, we say this instead, or in the USA, we only text this in this range of times a day). Related educational terms are called shaping and modeling.

A lot of what people think is confidence in Americans is really false bravado to cover massive insecurities. That's one of the major reasons I want to leave the USA. So many people are afraid to let it be known that they don't know something so they have to pretend like the already know how to do it. As a result, they never learn or accomplish anything meaningful. Likewise, in order to cover up their massive insecurities, they have to buy the most outrageous car, wear loud clothing, drive up with their music blasting to a place, come in and yell/ offer to buy everyone drinks, and hit on everyone in a completely meaningless manner. I've seen behind the curtain, and those people are nail biting, relationship issue having, insecure messes. I like the quiet confidence that actually comes with competence. Actually, what I care about is competence. Building up confidence is a lot easier than women think. Building up competence is possible too. I hardly ever see any of that in the town I am in right now, and I am ready for a change. The thing I'd say is probably hardest to build up is genuinely nice, so that's why I'd start with that and work on everything else, if needed.
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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby bismarck » 06 May 2012, 10:53

chris1234 wrote:I think people make this too complicated. If a guy is confident in himself/ dedicated/ willing to learn through practic enough to sit through all the K-12 school cramming I hear about, than you can train him. I've helped a lot of people become more confidend, assertive, etc. Find a guy that's a nice guy. Then just work him on everything else. Tell him how you like it when he does A. Then tell him how turned on you get when he does B. Tell him how C makes you feel. Tell him you want to brag to the girls back home that he does D. Tell him when you were shopping you had a fantasy that he would do E because he is so good at F. Before you know it, you'll have a TW guy doing all kinds of things that you never imagined, he'll think he's the best lover ever, and he won't be shy about doing things in the relationship. Set up an environment where it's okay for him/ encouraged to try new things/ ask for things also. No one has done G to me before. I really like how you thought of H, that made me feel how passionate you were for me (whatever, you can phrase that better). If he says something that's off putting or texts too much, focus the correction in a less threatening/ more accepted manner by explaining it as a matter of translation or learning about a new culture (in the USA, we say this instead, or in the USA, we only text this in this range of times a day). Related educational terms are called shaping and modeling.

A lot of what people think is confidence in Americans is really false bravado to cover massive insecurities. That's one of the major reasons I want to leave the USA. So many people are afraid to let it be known that they don't know something so they have to pretend like the already know how to do it. As a result, they never learn or accomplish anything meaningful. Likewise, in order to cover up their massive insecurities, they have to buy the most outrageous car, wear loud clothing, drive up with their music blasting to a place, come in and yell/ offer to buy everyone drinks, and hit on everyone in a completely meaningless manner. I've seen behind the curtain, and those people are nail biting, relationship issue having, insecure messes. I like the quiet confidence that actually comes with competence. Actually, what I care about is competence. Building up confidence is a lot easier than women think. Building up competence is possible too. I hardly ever see any of that in the town I am in right now, and I am ready for a change. The thing I'd say is probably hardest to build up is genuinely nice, so that's why I'd start with that and work on everything else, if needed.

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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby chris1234 » 07 May 2012, 08:10

Yes. But can you build titties and ass?[/quote]

Drink Coke and eat at McDonald's, like the average American man, and you will have big boobs and a soft, curvy bottom, that you can admire every day, like the average American man.
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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby formosaobama » 07 May 2012, 09:23

chris1234 wrote:Yes. But can you build titties and ass?


Drink Coke and eat at McDonald's, like the average American man, and you will have big boobs and a soft, curvy bottom, that you can admire every day, like the average American man.[/quote]

I think I remember a scene in Seinfeld where one of the characters (George, iirc) said if he had those attributes, he'd never leave the house.

Getting back to the point, it isn't just Chinese culture that produces "momma's boys" you know. It's also not uncommon for Italian men to be spoiled by their mother and live in the house they grew up in well into adulthood.
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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby channamasala » 07 May 2012, 18:15

Now, I should note that I"m writing this despite never having actually dated a Taiwanese guy and being married to another foreigner, so I never will. But, after five years, I do have some observations. So here goes:

The girliness that some Western women complain about - which is absolutely NOT an issue with every Taiwanese guy, just a particular skinny-jeans wearing subset (PSA to Taiwanese guys in skinny jeans: NO. Just no) - has very little to do with their relationship to family. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a lot of us foreign women kind of like the dedication to family that many Taiwanese men show. We have our worries about a serious future in which we'll be pressured by in-laws to have babies (I know a lot of Taiwanese women who do not want children, or don't want them now, who are trying to have them now because their mother-in-law wishes it, and we Western women are just not OK with that) or be expected to spend every weekend with them, but that's a separate worry and not one you need to really think about when just dating. That comes later, and can be worked through later, and might not even be a problem - my Taiwanese friends have said that in-laws will probably be a lot less demanding or overbearing toward Western wives because they figure they won't be able to get away with it. And they'd be right. And yes, we worry about being expected to fill that 'mother' role of making dinner, cleaning, doing laundry etc. but honestly we worry about that with Western guys, too (and many of us are picky about any guy we get serious with regardless of background for this reason. I'm nobody's momma and nobody's maid).

No no no. The girliness some of us notice in some (NOT ALL! I can't say that enough) of the men is from the fashion sense, the occasionally effeminate mannerisms, and - very occasionally - certain reactions or pickiness that is surprising. One of my good friends - a Taiwanese man whom I otherwise do not find girly at all - came over with his girlfriend and a mutual friend once for dinner and shrieked like a girl whenever my cat got close to him. OK, fair enough, he's afraid of cats, but really? Shrieking? Fortunately he's super cool and we had a good laugh about it later, and overall I think highly of him. Just as an example, I was surprised to see a man, y'know, shriek like a little girl who got a bug put down her dress.

But, you know what, while if I were single I probably would not date this particular friend - it wouldn't be because of his totally girly reaction to my cat. It would be for the same reasons why I might not date any given guy of any given race or background: because of other basic incompatibilities that aren't an issue as friends but would be otherwise. If I were single and met a Taiwanese guy who shrieked like a girl at my cat, but we were otherwise compatible and had that kind of chemistry, then I wouldn't reject him because of occasional behavior that, from my cultural perspective, seems girly.

As for the difficulties in dating, it's as someone said above: communication issues. When guys back home like a girl, they show it. You can read the body language. You can get a sense of it. They would be more direct and actually, y'know, ask the girl out or find reasons to spend time with her. Here, I've been told time and time again that Taiwanese guys just don't do that. There are signs - body language, ways of acting around a girl they like, but it's all much more subtle and we Western women don't pick up on it because we're trained by our own culture to look for more obvious signs. We simply don't KNOW the guy likes us, because from our perspective, he doesn't show it. At. All. And he wouldn't necessarily ever ask you out: if it doesn't happen naturally, it's just not going to happen in many cases.

Only after five years do I feel I've grown a sense of what a Taiwanese guy who likes me acts like (being married, and therefore dispassionate and not invested in whether any guy likes me helps - my lens is not clouded), and there are signs, but when I first arrived and for those first few years, you bet I couldn't tell.

And yet, we Western women feel ignored - not because we necessarily are (although by foreign guys in Taiwan, we often are - that's a different story) but because we can't tell that we're not.

THAT is the problem, in a world where the man is expected to take the lead (not that I personally agree that men should always take the lead in these matters, but that is something both Western and Asian cultures seem to have in common).
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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby chris1234 » 08 May 2012, 03:41

@ channamasala, I think that's why a lot of women in the USA wind up in relationships with guys who aren't very nice, cheat, and are a terrible match. That's one of the nice things about being a guy, none of my selection criteria involve how good a woman is at picking up guys. Mostly, I figure that anyone (man or woman) who is particularly good at picking people up/ flirting does so because they are bad at being in long- term relationships. If you're mostly in long- term, faithful relationships, you don't really get to practice picking people up.

I'd much rather have someone who is good at communicating in a healthy manner within a relationship.

That said, I can understand what you are saying about communicating interest differently. When I get down low (to pick up something that fell down, tie my shoes, etc.), a dog that I had thought I wanted to play. That's because bending down low, with their behinds up in the air is a sign dogs give to each other that they want to play. The dog I got was also feral when I started training her, and she didn't get the concept of the toys that I waived around/ threw. However, we trained each other on how to signal play. If people/ dogs can figure out each other's languages, people from different countries can do the same.

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Re: dating advice for white girls?

Postby channamasala » 08 May 2012, 10:19

Yes, I agree. As I said, I don't actually agree with the idea that men should take the lead and pick up women, just observing that this is how it seems to be done in both cultures. I guess more accurately, you could say that men are expected to "pursue" women (which is different from picking them up). Again, I don't really agree with this social construct: I totally made my interest clear to my now-husband. I've never been very good at holding things in and I definitely don't play coy - the downside is that this has tended to scare away guys who still adhere to the old "man chases woman" model. The upside? The guys who are left are totally down with assertive women! I'll take that trade-off! I can't say whether a Taiwanese guy would be more or less likely to be scared off by a woman who does the pursuing than a Western guy, because I've never had to find out.

That said, it's hard for most women to ignore all the social conditioning they've been given to be the pursued rather than the pursuers. We hear it from family, books ("He's Just Not That Into You"), movies, society in general, and even in Taiwan for as much as a Western guy might say that part of the problem is that we wait to be picked up, when you hear a Western guy talk about his Taiwanese girlfriend using adjectives like "sweet", "gentle", "hardworking", "womanly", "feminine", "soft" and whatever, and then describe Western women as "aggressive", "angry", "demanding", well, what exactly are we supposed to think? In terms of women pursuing men the message is there, even if it's not overt: "don't".

I also think a lot of women end up with bad guys not just because bad guys pick up women and good guys don't, although there's a lot of truth to that (my husband is Mr. Amazing Good Guy but has always been terrible at pursuing women). It's also because those women are a.) fed the message that they're 'better' if they've caught a man (and we are fed that message, not always overtly but it's there); b.) happen to want love and companionship but aren't encouraged by society to pursue it, so they end up with some loser they know isn't good enough, because they don't know how to do it any other way; and majorly, c.) don't trust their intuition. In their gut they know a guy's no good, but they don't listen: especially if they've been totally conditioned to believe - consciously or not - that they are better with a man than they are single.

And it's not that Taiwanese men don't pursue women in their own way - they do. You could argue they are more reticent to pursue foreign women, and in many cases, especially among twentysomethings, this can be true. I'm in my early 30s and Taiwanese men who have indicated interest in me (not many, but a few) have all been in their 30s, an age when it seems to be much less of a problem (also, an age when Taiwanese guys stop being dorky kids in the night market and start being pretty cool guys). I can see how a twentysomething single female buxiban teacher or MTC student might feel she's not being pursued, because Taiwanese guys her age likely *are* more reticent, but an early thirtysomething might have more luck. I know it's said that 30 is the "cut off" for a woman's desireability in Asia, but I haven't found this to be all that true in Taiwan. I have plenty of thirtysomething single Taiwanese female friends and students who are happily dating or have good boyfriends.

It's that the "way" that they pursue women is not a way that Western women can easily pick up on unless they've been here awhile and have learned how to do it, and honestly, I can see why a single woman might not be all that interested in staying for 3-5 years just to learn how to read signals from local guys. In my experience that's how long it takes. I can understand why she'd get frustrated after a year or two and go home.

I can also see how a single foreign woman in Taiwan might not be able to cultivate the local social circle that I have: I do feel that being married gives me a sort of protective cover. I have local guy friends because their girlfriends aren't threatened by me (and my observation of much of the expat community is that while there are lots of local female friends and girlfriends about, having Taiwanese male friends - good male friends, no less - is fairly rare). I have local female friends who generally wouldn't hang out with foreigners: I have heard it said that in some circles, hanging out with foreigners, even if you're a local woman with a foreign female friend, is seen as 吃西餐 or "eating Western". Some (not all!) people will assume you're only doing it to get a foreign boyfriend through her social circle. My friends have not said this, but there's a good chance that, if I were single, I'd have fewer of them because they might, consciously or not, be afraid of being labeled that way. As a married woman I'm, I dunno, safer to hang out with. This isn't universally true but I think there's some truth to it. And when you don't have a local social circle, it's harder to meet local guys, who generally don't go trying to meet women randomly: they're far more likely to date classmates, same-industry peers or even coworkers, or friends of friends.

I know, I know. tl;dr...

But there's a lot to this topic and it can't - it simply can't - be boiled down to "Western women think Taiwanese men are girly because they're too picky or prejudiced". That's not really the issue, at least not with most (I've met a few for whom it is).
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