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local guys talking smack about you?

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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby Ermintrude » 26 Sep 2013, 15:48

finley wrote:
British people are awfully fat lately though (and yes, especially the women). When you stroll around a supermarket, it's pretty

bebb3]


Well, according to the lists of such things, Britain isn't even in the top ten, with six Euro countries come in higher.

Obesity in first world countries comes from poverty, with some of the lowest life expectancies in Europe in parts of Manchester, Glasgow and Liverpool. You can't surely be shocked that women bear the brunt of this? Nationally, women earn 7.2% less than men. The women in East Manchester are a lot fatter than the women in south Oxford, for example.

Only on Planet 12 year old Boy is 'yebbut you're FAT!!!!' actually an insult. Not being thin is like not being clever. There's a complex set of factors involved such as inherited traits, environment, childhood abuse, physical and mental illness, socioeconomic background, parenting, and yes, personal responsibility. And everyone's a bit 'fatter' than they think they are. It's very easy to look down on someone for being fat, just as it's easy to look down on someone who is not as bright as you, or not as good with money, or who has bad haircuts, or whatever. It's just not very interesting to have these ways of delineating worthwhile or not worthwhile people.

I absolutely do it myself: I understand. I simply am not interested in befriending people who don't have certain attributes and I can determine whether you have those by looking at your face. But it's wrong and dumb and it's not good to dismiss people out of hand, even if you aren't going to be friends.

Can I just check, though: it's still ok to laugh at poor people and Americans?
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby finley » 26 Sep 2013, 16:05

I spose we're drifting OT here, but:

Well, according to the lists of such things, Britain isn't even in the top ten, with six Euro countries come in higher.

I don't put a lot of faith in lists. I know what I saw, and I've been around Europe (France, Germany, Netherlands) in recent years too. Certainly the Germans are a bit pudgy, but nobody matches the British for pockmarked, saggy, death-like pallor. It's not so much that they're obese - I mean, 150lb or 200lb, what's the difference? - but they are shockingly unhealthy. The average 20-something girl looks like she's in her late 30s or 40s.

Obesity in first world countries comes from poverty, with some of the lowest life expectancies in Europe in parts of Manchester, Glasgow and Liverpool.
There's a complex set of factors involved such as inherited traits, environment, childhood abuse, physical and mental illness, socioeconomic background, parenting, and yes, personal responsibility.

I disagree. I grew up on a council estate and we were dirt-poor, as were my friends. Money was desperately tight, but there was enough. Some of us ate utter shite at home, while some of us had parents who cooked good meals. In those days, the former were in the minority, because prepackaged shite was comparatively expensive. You could spot which kid had which sort of parent. We might have been poor, but we was 'appy.

My opinion is that people have been deliberately and carefully trained to accept low-quality, easily-produced food with high profit margins for the manufacturer and retailer. The driving force has been the nature of the supply chain: industrialisation of farming, concentration of buying power into very few hands (three or four conglomerates, in the UK) and subsidy of (or government support for) service industries like warehousing and road transport. Retailers sell whatever fits neatly into this machine, and then bombard consumers with expertly-constructed advertising to convince them that this is what they want. Couple that with a gov't who want everybody out at work 24-7 (instead of, say, looking after their kids), and you're pretty much guaranteed to get a lot of people who don't know how to eat right.

But it's wrong and dumb and it's not good to dismiss people out of hand, even if you aren't going to be friends.

Not dismissing fat people at all. I'm just appalled that my native country has been turned into a nation of fat people by Big Ag and the gubmint. And most men don't find fat women physically attractive. And vice versa, of course. Might be crass and shallow to make that observation, but it is so.
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby Ermintrude » 26 Sep 2013, 16:30

The list shows Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians as being high up. I can believe that: the shitty mittel euro carbs and pork thing.

Yeah, sure. I had a schizo childhood: I had a horse at my mother's family's house, my father lived on a sink estate in Manchester so I grew up concurrently rich and poor. The 'big house' was much more frugal but we had veggies from our land, the butcher, the baker, etc. My other family ate repetively but well. That was in the 70s and 80s, though. Things have changed. Food is worse and the poor face the brunt of it. Have a look at agirlcalledjack.com if you are interested. It's important and it's political. We have to fight the power.

Also, I am fat and I understandably hate being told it's because I'm stupid, lazy, poor, have no self control, and am not sexy by people who I would never stoop to being with in a 1000 years. It seems socially acceptable to say that to a woman, yet not to say to a man 'you just aren't very bright' or 'you're half bald' or 'your face is not pleasant to look at: have your heard of Pore Strips?' There are lots of reasons and some are my fault and in my control, some are due to learned behaviour in childhood, and some are genuinely beyond my control: congenital stuff. I'm not asking anyone to find fat people attractive, but you have to agree that it's just bad mannered to say whether you find the traits of people in your presence sexually unattractive!

It's sexist. 'I don't like fat British women: ugh, I saw them all swarming around like whales back home'. Change that round a bit: 'I don't like thin black men: add a couple of animal references'. It's not OK to speak like that in public, yet it is if it's about women.

Nothing ever gets better.

Edit: not addressing you in particular, finley.
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby hansioux » 26 Sep 2013, 17:15

it isn't surprising that some central European countries are high on the list.... most of the food items I saw were fried stuff and meat (often just friend meat) with almost no vegetables.... the food is often washed down with beer.
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby finley » 26 Sep 2013, 17:28

Ermintrude wrote:Things have changed. Food is worse and the poor face the brunt of it. Have a look at agirlcalledjack.com if you are interested. It's important and it's political. We have to fight the power.

They certainly have, and you're right that something needs to be done to change it back again. That's a good blog - I'm convinced that eating properly is not about money. Tomorrow I'll be on a plane to the Philippines, where I'm planning to kick off a vertically-integrated agriculture/retail/restaurant project. Ten days, three provinces, lots of land to look at. If you think feeding British people is difficult, over there, the expected price for a meal is around 20-40pesos (30-60 pence), and a lot of people subsist on pot noodles made from (subsidized) American wheat. I think it doesn't have to be that way, and I intend to try and prove it. Not because I feel sorry for poor/fat people and think they need charity, but because I think I can make money, enjoy a new challenge, and possibly make a few other people happier in the process.

Also, I am fat and I understandably hate being told it's because I'm stupid, lazy, poor, have no self control, and am not sexy by people who I would never stoop to being with in a 1000 years.

Well, I gather you're attached, but if you weren't, being fat would limit your options. I'm old and decrepit, but I like to stay in shape (to the extent that my age allows) for my own satisfaction; also, I'd never expect my wife to get all excited by a fat guy. I think it's disrespectful not to pay attention to one's body shape just because you've snared a partner, just as it's disrespectful to let slide one's standards of dress, manners, or oral hygiene.

It seems socially acceptable to say that to a woman, yet not to say to a man 'you just aren't very bright' or 'you're half bald' or 'your face is not pleasant to look at: have your heard of Pore Strips?'

Nope. This isn't just a woman thing. Men get as much or more pressure to not look like slobs. Personally, I noticed the fat women more than fat men because there were fewer fat men. It was summertime, and there were plenty of shirtless young guys with bodyfat in the 15% range. The girls they were with were ... not so shapely.

There are lots of reasons and some are my fault and in my control, some are due to learned behaviour in childhood, and some are genuinely beyond my control: congenital stuff. I'm not asking anyone to find fat people attractive, but you have to agree that it's just bad mannered to say whether you find the traits of people in your presence sexually unattractive!

Sure it's bad manners to do that. But people like what they like, and you may one day find yourself in a situation where you would very much like to get to know some particular guy ... better, but it's not going to happen because his (physical) preference is for slim women. Saying to yourself: "well, I would never want to be with a guy who can't accept me as I am" rather misses the point.

Even if you have medical issues that make it hard to lose weight, it's probably not impossible; you might even find that those issues are alleviated by becoming slim. If you wanted to be slim, you could be, so if you're not, I have to assume it's because you just don't want it enough. I can't criticize your choice, but I don't think it's unreasonable or sexist to point out that the choice exists.

People judge fat people because - in my experience - they often have either have an external locus of control, or have emotional issues with food. Both of those things are unattractive in and of themselves. Everybody gets screwed up by their childhood, in one way or another, and part of growing up is to identify what they did to you, and fix it :)
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby skoster » 26 Sep 2013, 17:34

Ermintrude wrote:...

It's sexist. 'I don't like fat British women: ugh, I saw them all swarming around like whales back home'. Change that round a bit: 'I don't like thin black men: add a couple of animal references'. It's not OK to speak like that in public, yet it is if it's about women.

Nothing ever gets better.

Edit: not addressing you in particular, finley.


A more apt comparison woul be "I don't like fat men" and that's just as socially acceptable to say.

Mind you, I agree it shouldn't be, I'm just pointing out that it's the fat descriptor which is acceptable, not the gender.


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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby Ermintrude » 26 Sep 2013, 18:31

finley wrote:They certainly have, and you're right that something needs to be done to change it back again. That's a good blog - I'm convinced that eating properly is not about money. Tomorrow I'll be on a plane to the Philippines, where I'm planning to kick off a vertically-integrated agriculture/retail/restaurant project. Ten days, three provinces, lots of land to look at. If you think feeding British people is difficult, over there, the expected price for a meal is around 20-40pesos (30-60 pence), and a lot of people subsist on pot noodles made from (subsidized) American wheat. I think it doesn't have to be that way, and I intend to try and prove it. Not because I feel sorry for poor/fat people and think they need charity, but because I think I can make money, enjoy a new challenge, and possibly make a few other people happier in the process.


It's not about money, it's about long term poverty. I've lived with no money and ate well. It's the simple treat when you NEVER have new shoes or take a holiday and ... just so many things involved in first world poverty.

Well, I gather you're attached, but if you weren't, being fat would limit your options. I'm old and decrepit, but I like to stay in shape (to the extent that my age allows) for my own satisfaction; also, I'd never expect my wife to get all excited by a fat guy. I think it's disrespectful not to pay attention to one's body shape just because you've snared a partner, just as it's disrespectful to let slide one's standards of dress, manners, or oral hygiene.


Actually, I left him to move to China. I was fatter when I met him. Given that he picked me out and he likes my body, would it be disrespectful to 'let myself go' by dieting and exercising? Of course not.

Nope. This isn't just a woman thing. Men get as much or more pressure to not look like slobs. .


Not so much on forumosa... Where's the 'white men are ugly and bald' cracks? The 'ABCs dress like mental patients' quips? And in the wider world. Just ... no. You don't. Men comment on womens' appearence, openly and publically from the age of about ten and up. It's threatening, a lot of the time, sometimes it's rude, sometimes it thoughtless, sometimes it's said to put you in your place.

Sure it's bad manners to do that. But people like what they like, and you may one day find yourself in a situation where you would very much like to get to know some particular guy ... better, but it's not going to happen because his (physical) preference is for slim women. Saying to yourself: "well, I would never want to be with a guy who can't accept me as I am" rather misses the point.!


I can honestly say that if a guy doesn't like me, then there's no chemistry. No chemistry, that's a male friend. I'm fine with that. Bros before, em, boys you shag. Me: I'm very picky and actually quite grossed out by dozens of physical traits, but it's simply not OK to say that in the presence of people that may have those traits. You keep it to yourself.

I don't go out with guys who like blondes or Taiwanese women either. So?

Even if you have medical issues that make it hard to lose weight, it's probably not impossible; you might even find that those issues are alleviated by becoming slim. If you wanted to be slim, you could be, so if you're not, I have to assume it's because you just don't want it enough. I can't criticize your choice, but I don't think it's unreasonable or sexist to point out that the choice exists.

People judge fat people because - in my experience - they often have either have an external locus of control, or have emotional issues with food. Both of those things are unattractive in and of themselves. Everybody gets screwed up by their childhood, in one way or another, and part of growing up is to identify what they did to you, and fix it :)


Yes, but just point that choice out to yourself, in your mind! Yes, I'm a semi-intelligent woman and understand these things. I get it. Yes, I get that you might perceive me as 'damaged', but how do you thing your pointing out the textbook ideas helps? Why do you think I need people I don't know to like me, to see me as emotionally stable? I'm 40. I'm not particularly vulnerable and I wasn't that damaged by my childhood: I got fat in my mid-20s after an illness and moving to Asia.

Turn it around. From your posts, I might have certain perceptions of you which you might find insulting. Would you genuinely enjoy having these assumptions made about you from what you display intellectually? You aren't that quick in conversation, you only speak four languages, you're just a lawyer or a technical writer: your parents didn't bring you up properly, you weren't read to as a child, your mother smoked during your pregnancy, you don't care about yourself enough to read three novels a week, your father didn't care about you enough to pay for a decent school, you're lazy and sit on the sofa watching TV all the time. Even if the assumptions are half true, who wants to be told they're a clear 20 IQ points off being fuckable and on what planet is that acceptable? It's acceptable to tell a woman in public that she probably has emotional problems and no self-respect or respect for her partner because she's fat.

A physical thing from which made strangers decide you had emotional damage from childhood? That's just not OK either. It's so passive aggressive and it's all about 'grading' women and controlling them, especially poorer women who are excluded from so much anyway.

Whatever you might project onto us, ultimately, it always says more about 'you' than 'me'.
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby finley » 26 Sep 2013, 20:26

Eh ... I'm probably digging myself into an enormous hole here, but here's another try. Let's go back to poverty. Being poor is a choice. It might not be a deliberate or conscious choice; you might have been pushed into it,one way or another, by other people; your social group might have made the choice. Nevertheless, it is a choice. Policy, legislation, charity, and hectoring will never "cure" poverty: ultimately, poor people must choose not to be poor. Obviously, policy, legislation, etc. can make that choice more or less palatable, but the decision still rests with the individual or the group to which he/she belongs. And if you choose to be poor, people will make certain assumptions about your personality. It doesn't define the entirety of your being, but it does say something about some aspects of your personality. Incidentally, I'm not defining "poor" as "someone who doesn't buy new shoes or holidays on a regular basis".

Likewise with being fat. Bodyweight is one of the few things over which everybody has 100% control. Nobody else can make you fat except by shoving a tube down your nose and pumping pureed Big Macs in there. Therefore, if someone chooses to be fat, people will inevitably make certain assumptions about why you have made that choice. Again, this does not define who you are. But it does inform people that you might react in certain ways to certain situations.

This is not "sterotyping". In general, it's called Theory of Mind: we make predictions about other people's behaviour by building models of their minds, based on our experiences and introspection. Some people are extraordinarily poor at building these models (eg., Aspergers', or people who have had an abusive or abnormal upbringing). Some people are very good at it (psychopaths, for example). For most people, our models will be wrong in individual cases, but on the average, they're pretty effective bearing in mind that we put them together in seconds or minutes. They get the job done. My experience is that people who are fat have a predominantly external locus of control. Since your posts contain a lot of references to external factors in connection with both poverty and bodyweight, I have to assume that this is more-or-less true for you too. Again, this is not a value judgement, nor does it have anything to do with whether I like you or not (I don't suppose you care, but I like your online persona - I find your remarks insightful, interesting, and funny). It's just a part of my model of the way you think. You already said this yourself, in one sentence:

I simply am not interested in befriending people who don't have certain attributes and I can determine whether you have those by looking at your face. But it's wrong and dumb and it's not good to dismiss people out of hand, even if you aren't going to be friends.


Turn it around. From your posts, I might have certain perceptions of you which you might find insulting. Would you genuinely enjoy having these assumptions made about you from what you display intellectually?

You've got a model of me in your head. If you mentioned some of the more unsavoury aspects, I'd probably be embarrassed or upset. What I did next would depend on (a) whether I thought it was true or not and (b) whether I thought it mattered. If you said I was a pompous, judgemental git, I'd probably agree, and I might make a mental note to try to tone down the pomposity (judgemental I can maybe live with). If you said that I have a simplistic and naive view of the world (re. my comments about choices) I'd probably disagree and make no changes. My personal view of the world is that we have an enormous amount of control over our own lives and that few people bother to exercise it; that's not the same thing as saying it's all simple. You can disagree, but it wouldn't alter my views.
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby shiadoa » 26 Sep 2013, 21:07

buzzkill1 wrote:
shiadoa wrote:
buzzkill1 wrote:
Ermintrude wrote:I guess you managed to 'select' that trait in a few hundred years because of the massive amounts of talking and eating you people do?


Haha! Coming from a Limey! Brits are officially now the fattest members of the 1st world,


Mmm, maybe you thought it said UK as number one. It actually states US. These figures are from UN,OECD and WHO but maybe you found another source to substantiate the drivel you are spouting. Please engage your Brain before driving your keyboard.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-17/chart-day-where-worlds-fattest-people-are


HAHA. You got me. Americans are fatter, mostly thanks to the South. You can see from Mr Bean that some Englishmen are quite thin. What I meant to say was British women are the fattest in Europe



Your source doesn't even put the UK in the top 10. That's clearly off. Norway and Germany more obese than the UK? Yeah right :thumbsup: British are ranked the ugliest in Europe as well
http://rightly.eu/britons-ugliest-europeans-claims-study/
"Overwhelmingly, both sexes ranked Britons dead last in terms of attractiveness"
"Men were criticized for looking ‘likely to commit violence’ or ‘weirdly old-fashioned’, while women were often described as ‘vulgar’ or ‘tarty’." :lol:

Now Ugliest...I don't have an argument for or against Buzzkill :) He he.
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Re: local guys talking smack about you?

Postby Ermintrude » 26 Sep 2013, 21:09

[Edit: was probably a lot more personal info than I really should share online, bearing in mind that making a point on the internet is about as useful an activity as Thai fruit carving.]

(I don't suppose you care, but I like your online persona - I find your remarks insightful, interesting, and funny)


No: it's worth about the same as 'I like your hair'. I didn't make my brain any more than I made my hair follicles. It's not me.
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