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Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Confuzius » 26 Dec 2011, 23:14

Confuzius wrote:
dulan drift wrote:
Confuzius wrote: Yesterday, my wife saw a guy riding with two children on the scooter...one behind him ASLEEP, the other between his legs, neither were wearing helmets AND he was smoking a cigarette while driving.

That's the kinda guy that locks his dog in a crate in the hot sun with no water all day. Needs to get a serious ass kicking.


And how many kids on the scooter does the guy have who lets his dog pack roam free at night to maraud his neighbours’ stock, dig up their vegetable patches, and rampantly breed to produce pups (half of which will starve to death), while knowing full well that there is good chance his own dogs will get run over by a car (saw that happen twice this weekend), or get trapped or poisoned? What should his ass get, and is he a smoker or a non-smoker?


Probably the same thing you should get, but how am I to know?

EDIT

Actually, (to be serious, for just a moment), such a person's ass needs to get caught in a steel trap. (the number of children or smoking is irrelevant, which you may or may not have realized, it was used to illustrate a point about people sucking when laws are not enforced).

I am a dog lover, so much so, that I sold my 2010 Mazda (was a gift) to be able to afford bringing my dog out here. Went through HELL to be able to get him here, the whole backstory can be found here: http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=103597

That being said, those who place traps in places where dogs are caught are no more at fault than people who allow their dogs to run free.

Throughout this thread, there have been two choices for dog owners that people are presenting as the ONLY two options:
1. Run free
2. Chained/locked in a cage.

But these are not the only 2 options, and I do not think any of the dog lovers (or trap haters) on this thread have been advocating #1.

My dog ain't a small fella (he ain't huge) around 65 lbs, but he was well behaved living in a 1 bdr apt and is well behaved living in a 3 bdr apt. If I had tons of land in the country, for SURE I would let him run around more...but only on MY property, with my supervision. If he was without my supervision, he would have to be in a safe, fenced-in area.

My dog currently only goes off leash (outside of the house) in 2 settings: 1. fenced in dog park and 2. while hiking with me. (the second why I am so vehemently scared of traps being setup in the wilderness), but it is not like he will be out of ear shot for even a single minute (I keep him on a tight leach, even when off leash).

Setting traps is wrong (as I feel, as I have expressed), not having a handle on your dog is wrong as well, just as wrong. If a dog is let to roam free on a normal basis and is caught in a trap or run over by a car, the owner is just as much as fault as anyone else.

But 2 wrongs don't make a right.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby jimipresley » 01 Jan 2012, 13:55

Alright, you guys have had a cool-off period and made me WORK on my day off. :bluemad:

You can have your thread back now. PLEASE play nice! :bow:
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Ex Animo » 04 Jan 2012, 15:01

Many people and groups have worked hard to see this, and what a joy it is to behold:

"A farmer in Taipei became the first offender in Taiwan fined for installing traps to ambush and harm animals. Officials urged people to abide by the animal protection regulations and not commit similar offenses."

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/local/taipei/2012/01/04/327905/Taipei-farmer.htm

Many, many thanks to all of you who have been supporting the groups that have helped bring the issue of gin traps to the public eye and force the government to control their use. You really are an important part of the team that brought us to this milestone. :bravo: :notworthy:
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Pingdong » 06 Jan 2012, 02:43

glad to hear something has happened, albeit small, at least it is being done! congrats to all, especially the critters that may now of avoided a leg trap on the leg or snout.


but i wanted to comment on the "fault thing". I don't play blame games often, but in this case it is quite clear teh peopel using these traps are FAR more to blame than any number of careless pet owners. I say this for a few reasons.

1. careless pet owners are jsut lazy peopel who dont give a shit. right or wrong, they are not, in this sense, actively going out and hurting anuimakls. peopel who set traps do so with 1 single goal, to catch an animal in it. so this alone is proof enough that peopel setting traps are intentionally planning to harm animals.

2. traps dont discriminate. they dont care about anything but weight concentrated on their trigger. it can be a human child, dog, cat or any number of native species of animals, traps will close once somethign presses them, it matters not what the actual object is that presses them.

3. in heavy farm areas it is not often stray pet dogs that destroy crops but other farm dogs or wild dogs.


lastly, I don't advocate letting dogs roam free. but if i choose between the 2 choices most dogs have with many backwater taiwanese people i chose roaming free over steel cage, any day of the week. its not great, but at times things are not always perfect. roaming free is the lesser of 2 evils in my own opinion. I only say this using my own feelings to push upon how a dog would feel. in comparison to human life i feel its like living in a prison cell in cambodia compared to roaming free in China without any knowledge of China ro language capability, unable to speak and being somewhat retarded. that is how I view a dog, unable to speak, not on the same intelligence plane as humans but still quite intelligent and self aware, I don't think any creature really enjoys being confined to s place that they can often barely turn around in.

not aiming htis at any one person here, I think everyone here is more or less on the same page that animal cruelty is wrong, there ar ejsut different paths to an ultimate goal i suppose. In Taiwan, it is a messy one, im sure we can all relate.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby dulan drift » 13 Jan 2012, 00:56

Taiwan Animal SOS wrote:Many people and groups have worked hard to see this, and what a joy it is to behold:

"A farmer in Taipei became the first offender in Taiwan fined for installing traps to ambush and harm animals. Officials urged people to abide by the animal protection regulations and not commit similar offenses."

Many, many thanks to all of you who have been supporting the groups that have helped bring the issue of gin traps to the public eye and force the government to control their use. You really are an important part of the team that brought us to this milestone. :bravo: :notworthy:


That’s great, but the inconvenient truth is that makers of poison baits will be 'joyfully beholding' the day their sales doubled.

And for me, poisoning is much worse, resulting in a slow and agonizing death for the poor animal that takes the bait. And remember, it’s called a bait because the scent and taste is attractive to animals. As such, it’s less discriminate and more destructive than traps. Traps set on private property (where dogs and cats are usually affected – as MM says, dogs rarely venture into the jungle here) are set for the specific purpose of catching a specific animal. In one night, a trap will only catch one animal, but a packet of poison can kill several. And not just marauding dogs and cats, but innocent native animals as well.

I would hate to see that happen, but I am afraid that’s exactly what the farmers will be forced to resort to. If you think they are going to throw their arms up in the air and say, ‘ok, you win, let your dogs come and dig up my garden and kill my livestock’, then I’m sorry to say, you’re living in fairyland, and you will never get this problem solved.

The answer to the problem of cats and dogs getting caught in traps begins and ends with getting the unrestrained dog and cat populations under control.

Here's how to do it if you really want to know:

1. All dogs and cats must be registered, with a registration fee that is high enough to deter people just bringing home a puppy from the market for the fun of it. The money from this registration could be used to fund an advertising campaign regarding the responsibilities of being a dog owner, a pro-active dog impounding service, and an RSPCA type body.
2. All dogs and cats must be de-sexed. The only exceptions being for licensed breeders. Fees apply.

If we started tomorrow, the problem could be solved within 5 years.

As is normal in most developed countries, stray dogs would be impounded, and the owners would have 48 hrs to collect them or, after being favorably assessed for diseases and aggression levels, they would become available for other people to adopt. If no owner can be found (I think the period is 6 weeks in Canada), then unfortunately they would need to be put down.

This is not some crazy, radical idea I have cooked up – it’s just the norm in most countries and now it needs to happen here because Taiwan, last time I checked, had not been declared an island-wide Dog National Park.

But that’s exactly what it looks like to visitors.

You probably think I hate dogs and cats, but that’s not true (though I do like native animals more) – I just think their populations (especially dogs) are absurdly out of control and something (well just the above two simple steps actually) needs to be done about it.

You got the traps banned, well done, and I apologize for raining on your parade, but could you please put the same amount of energy you put into that campaign into the one to introduce compulsory dog registration and the enforcement of current laws prohibiting owners from letting their pets roam free? You’re gonna solve the whole problem if you can achieve that.

It’s what they call a win-win.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby dulan drift » 13 Jan 2012, 01:03

Pingdong wrote:i wanted to comment on the "fault thing". I don't play blame games often, but in this case it is quite clear teh peopel using these traps are FAR more to blame than any number of careless pet owners.

1. careless pet owners are jsut lazy peopel who dont give a shit. right or wrong, they are not, in this sense, actively going out and hurting anuimakls. peopel who set traps do so with 1 single goal, to catch an animal in it. so this alone is proof enough that peopel setting traps are intentionally planning to harm animals.


Are you kidding me? Are you saying being lazy is an excuse to slaughter other people's stock and dig up their crops? In fact you say 'right or wrong' like it's a 'hang's in the balance' thing and it might well be 'right'.

Uncontrolled dogs kill far more animals than traps do. A few months ago, I went to visit a foreigner friend and she/he was boasting how many animals their cat kills '- at least one a night: lizards, moles, rats (though they are not your Taipei style rat - a native bush rat), birds, frogs, rhinoceros beetles, you name it.
We argued, of course, and they said we would have to agree to disagree because there was no way they were going to restrict the free spirit of their beloved cat. Which did, as a point of fact, end up losing a foot in a trap - though only after a year of nightly free range hunting - (so the traps, in this area at least, would seem to be not as widely spread as has been claimed) and then, thankfully, it did actually lose its interest in hunting.

So on the charge of you being responsible for the deaths of your neighbours' ('neighbour' - that word means something in farming communities) livesotck and countless defenseless native animals, the owners are pleading...what?

Laziness...your honour.

Oh, that's ok then.

Neither can such an owner plead igonarance. Dogs and cats are well known to prey on animals smaller than them, and given that people on this forum have claimed that traps are set 'everywhere' then presumably they must be consciously aware that their action of letting their dog roam free will likely harm their own animal as well.

No, ignorance is no excuse. Stupidity would be a far stronger case to argue. 'Despite the well-known facts above, i didn't have the brains to compute the consequences.'

The only other possibility is that they do in fact, consciously, and arrogantly disrespect their neighbours' rights, and allow their pets to dig up their neighbours' crops and kill their chickens, ducks, baby goats, and countless native animals.

I don't know which one is the correct explanation, but it certainly has to be one of those two.

And then it's the poor old farmer who has been forced to take defensive measures against this low moral negligence that you brand as the real villain.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Ex Animo » 13 Jan 2012, 02:14

dulan drift wrote:
Taiwan Animal SOS wrote:Many people and groups have worked hard to see this, and what a joy it is to behold:

"A farmer in Taipei became the first offender in Taiwan fined for installing traps to ambush and harm animals. Officials urged people to abide by the animal protection regulations and not commit similar offenses."

Many, many thanks to all of you who have been supporting the groups that have helped bring the issue of gin traps to the public eye and force the government to control their use. You really are an important part of the team that brought us to this milestone. :bravo: :notworthy:


That’s great, but the inconvenient truth is that makers of poison baits will be 'joyfully beholding' the day their sales doubled.

And for me, poisoning is much worse, resulting in a slow and agonizing death for the poor animal that takes the bait. And remember, it’s called a bait because the scent and taste is attractive to animals. As such, it’s less discriminate and more destructive than traps. Traps set on private property (where dogs and cats are usually affected – as MM says, dogs rarely venture into the jungle here) are set for the specific purpose of catching a specific animal. In one night, a trap will only catch one animal, but a packet of poison can kill several. And not just marauding dogs and cats, but innocent native animals as well.

I would hate to see that happen, but I am afraid that’s exactly what the farmers will be forced to resort to. If you think they are going to throw their arms up in the air and say, ‘ok, you win, let your dogs come and dig up my garden and kill my livestock’, then I’m sorry to say, you’re living in fairyland, and you will never get this problem solved.

The answer to the problem of cats and dogs getting caught in traps begins and ends with getting the unrestrained dog and cat populations under control.

Here's how to do it if you really want to know:

1. All dogs and cats must be registered, with a registration fee that is high enough to deter people just bringing home a puppy from the market for the fun of it. The money from this registration could be used to fund an advertising campaign regarding the responsibilities of being a dog owner, a pro-active dog impounding service, and an RSPCA type body.
2. All dogs and cats must be de-sexed. The only exceptions being for licensed breeders. Fees apply.

If we started tomorrow, the problem could be solved within 5 years.

As is normal in most developed countries, stray dogs would be impounded, and the owners would have 48 hrs to collect them or, after being favorably assessed for diseases and aggression levels, they would become available for other people to adopt. If no owner can be found (I think the period is 6 weeks in Canada), then unfortunately they would need to be put down.

This is not some crazy, radical idea I have cooked up – it’s just the norm in most countries and now it needs to happen here because Taiwan, last time I checked, had not been declared an island-wide Dog National Park.

But that’s exactly what it looks like to visitors.

You probably think I hate dogs and cats, but that’s not true (though I do like native animals more) – I just think their populations (especially dogs) are absurdly out of control and something (well just the above two simple steps actually) needs to be done about it.

You got the traps banned, well done, and I apologize for raining on your parade, but could you please put the same amount of energy you put into that campaign into the one to introduce compulsory dog registration and the enforcement of current laws prohibiting owners from letting their pets roam free? You’re gonna solve the whole problem if you can achieve that.

It’s what they call a win-win.


We've already got the obvious covered, but thanks for summarising it all. :wink:
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby dulan drift » 13 Jan 2012, 10:27

Taiwan Animal SOS wrote:
dulan drift wrote:

The answer to the problem of cats and dogs getting caught in traps begins and ends with getting the unrestrained dog and cat populations under control.

1. All dogs and cats must be registered, with a registration fee that is high enough to deter people just bringing home a puppy from the market for the fun of it. The money from this registration could be used to fund an advertising campaign regarding the responsibilities of being a dog owner, a pro-active dog impounding service, and an RSPCA type body.
2. All dogs and cats must be de-sexed. The only exceptions being for licensed breeders. Fees apply.


We've already got the obvious covered, but thanks for summarising it all. :wink:


Not sure you have 'got it covered' because marading dog packs are free-range cats are still running out of control, where i live at least. But I'll take you at your word that you are genuinely trying to do something about solving the cause of this problem, and I, my chickens, my neigbour's chickens and ducks and baby goats, and all the native wildlife wish you godspeed and all the best in bringing the above reforms into law in Taiwan.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Icon » 13 Jan 2012, 11:35

Taiwan Animal SOS wrote:
dulan drift wrote:
Taiwan Animal SOS wrote:Many people and groups have worked hard to see this, and what a joy it is to behold:

"A farmer in Taipei became the first offender in Taiwan fined for installing traps to ambush and harm animals. Officials urged people to abide by the animal protection regulations and not commit similar offenses."

Many, many thanks to all of you who have been supporting the groups that have helped bring the issue of gin traps to the public eye and force the government to control their use. You really are an important part of the team that brought us to this milestone. :bravo: :notworthy:


That’s great, but the inconvenient truth is that makers of poison baits will be 'joyfully beholding' the day their sales doubled.

And for me, poisoning is much worse, resulting in a slow and agonizing death for the poor animal that takes the bait. And remember, it’s called a bait because the scent and taste is attractive to animals. As such, it’s less discriminate and more destructive than traps. Traps set on private property (where dogs and cats are usually affected – as MM says, dogs rarely venture into the jungle here) are set for the specific purpose of catching a specific animal. In one night, a trap will only catch one animal, but a packet of poison can kill several. And not just marauding dogs and cats, but innocent native animals as well.

I would hate to see that happen, but I am afraid that’s exactly what the farmers will be forced to resort to. If you think they are going to throw their arms up in the air and say, ‘ok, you win, let your dogs come and dig up my garden and kill my livestock’, then I’m sorry to say, you’re living in fairyland, and you will never get this problem solved.

The answer to the problem of cats and dogs getting caught in traps begins and ends with getting the unrestrained dog and cat populations under control.

Here's how to do it if you really want to know:

1. All dogs and cats must be registered, with a registration fee that is high enough to deter people just bringing home a puppy from the market for the fun of it. The money from this registration could be used to fund an advertising campaign regarding the responsibilities of being a dog owner, a pro-active dog impounding service, and an RSPCA type body.
2. All dogs and cats must be de-sexed. The only exceptions being for licensed breeders. Fees apply.

If we started tomorrow, the problem could be solved within 5 years.

As is normal in most developed countries, stray dogs would be impounded, and the owners would have 48 hrs to collect them or, after being favorably assessed for diseases and aggression levels, they would become available for other people to adopt. If no owner can be found (I think the period is 6 weeks in Canada), then unfortunately they would need to be put down.

This is not some crazy, radical idea I have cooked up – it’s just the norm in most countries and now it needs to happen here because Taiwan, last time I checked, had not been declared an island-wide Dog National Park.
But that’s exactly what it looks like to visitors.

You probably think I hate dogs and cats, but that’s not true (though I do like native animals more) – I just think their populations (especially dogs) are absurdly out of control and something (well just the above two simple steps actually) needs to be done about it.

You got the traps banned, well done, and I apologize for raining on your parade, but could you please put the same amount of energy you put into that campaign into the one to introduce compulsory dog registration and the enforcement of current laws prohibiting owners from letting their pets roam free? You’re gonna solve the whole problem if you can achieve that.

It’s what they call a win-win.


We've already got the obvious covered, but thanks for summarising it all. :wink:


+1

I do not think we can drag this problem much longer. It is a health/image/socioeconomical problem. It undresses the Taiwan psyche like nothing else. It has to be stopped. If the garbage problem was contained -with its pockets of exceptions- I am sure a coalition can be built to pass those two little pesky items of legislation. Just two main points, maybe three. No sales without big taxes, no sales without records, no letting go of the illegal breeders.

If I bought a 60 thousand nt computer, you bet I could go to the Consumer Commison when I discovered it was defective. If I threw it away in teh garbage, not in teh proper recycling bin, the law would be on my fanny, and I'd have to pay a heavy fine. But people sell "pets" for at least 20K, up to 300K, and the governement sees nothing. WTH?! The animal associations can only do so much. But as Dulan mentions, and I am here to assest, after checking Central American regulations -at leats on paper they conform to international standards, but they do remove animals in danger more than they do here because they are backed by the law, which is not the case in richer, more advanced Taiwan. A no-no in my book.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby cake » 13 Jan 2012, 21:17

I found a trap in the middle of Taipei last year near my apartment. I smashed it up.
I also paid for a street cat to have one of its back legs amputated about 5 years ago. Half its back leg was gone and bone was exposed. This was in the middle of built up Xizhi.
So traps aren't just in rural areas.
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