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Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby finley » 13 Jan 2012, 21:26

Nice one, cake. :thumbsup: It'll take a while for reality to catch up with the law, and for blue flipflop guy to realise that the sky won't fall on our heads because traps are banned ... but it will happen, eventually.

Probably about the same time as Taiwan implements a driving test.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Nuit » 14 Jan 2012, 10:55

I took the wrong path up in Taroko a couple of years back (trails were really unclear), and was descending a steep hill-side, wondering if this was the right way or not. Got my foot caught in something. Before I knew what was happening, a sapling sprang back, my foot was 4 feet up in the air, and I was on my back in the leaf litter.

I'd stepped into a wire noose trap.

Must have looked impressive. Thank-god it wasn't a steel-jaw trap, but as I 'hung' there, I was waiting for some local to come and finish me off with a rifle.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Pingdong » 15 Jan 2012, 04:38

Are you kidding me? Are you saying being lazy is an excuse to slaughter other people's stock and dig up their crops? In fact you say 'right or wrong' like it's a 'hang's in the balance' thing and it might well be 'right'.


Nope, not at all, I am simply pointing out a fact and the reality of the life here. when you set out traps/poison you are intentionally trying to torture and/or kill otehr animals. When you let a dog roam, you are not intentionally tryign to harm something, you are being lazy. I am not saying this is right or wrong, jsut simply pointing out the fact and its fairly obvious the difference.


Uncontrolled dogs kill far more animals than traps do. A few months ago, I went to visit a foreigner friend and she/he was boasting how many animals their cat kills '- at least one a night: lizards, moles, rats (though they are not your Taipei style rat - a native bush rat), birds, frogs, rhinoceros beetles, you name it.


Yep, I agree. so do all other carnivorous animals, so? the issue is they are killing animals that we as humans want to keep for our own profits. no one is setting traps for cats that catch lizards.



So on the charge of you being responsible for the deaths of your neighbours' ('neighbour' - that word means something in farming communities) livesotck and countless defenseless native animals, the owners are pleading...what?

Laziness...your honour.

Oh, that's ok then

Again I agree with you, I have one simple point ot make. Intentionally maiming/killing animals is quite frankly just as lazy as not caring for your dog, actually its even more lazy as caring for your pets is a lot of work compared to resetting a spring on a trap.

I also have very little to say for most animal farmers here as they are often caging up these creatures in tiny pens. So i could care less if they loose some profits, its all illgotten money in my opinion. The people I can feel for, and likely the most affected, are the people with a little land and have things like some chickens, hogs etc roaming around. These i can see as being truly affected. should people take better care of their pets? certianly. Should animals, that are doing exactly what their evolution has taught them to do be caught in a trap and live their last 10-30 hours in severe pain? no, I don't think so. peopel that farm animals could also cage up their animals to protect form dogs. I know you probabyl wont agree, but they will NOT change the dog thing in Taiwan as many are "wild" and not owned by people. And going back 20 years in Taiwan's animal treatment is not a good thing. The farmers trying to kill dogs killing their livestock are probably also the ones that swing shovels at snakes, and they probably have 100 decent sounding justifications for doing so. 2 wrongs dont make a right in my book, no matter how you want to say it.


Neither can such an owner plead igonarance. Dogs and cats are well known to prey on animals smaller than them, and given that people on this forum have claimed that traps are set 'everywhere' then presumably they must be consciously aware that their action of letting their dog roam free will likely harm their own animal as well.

For me the issue is not with the owner, its with the dogs. Who ends up dieing or injured? the pet, they suffer not you nor I, and no one seems to get that. All species are instinctively selfish, but we as humans in this area dont really need to be in this instance, at this point we enter greed.



The only other possibility is that they do in fact, consciously, and arrogantly disrespect their neighbours' rights, and allow their pets to dig up their neighbours' crops and kill their chickens, ducks, baby goats, and countless native animals.

the farmers themselves most certainly kill far more animals than any pet, just not economically valuable ones so its not often thought about. you cant expect to hold humans accountable for much, if we did the whole agriculture scene would be drastically different! But again, i really do agree with you that pets should be watched/cared for better, just need to point out that its not a one way street.


And then it's the poor old farmer who has been forced to take defensive measures against this low moral negligence that you brand as the real villain.


Our family here is a family of "poor ol farmers". I don't play that card one bit, they are not so poor and innocent, in fact they are one of the biggest environmental problems we have...these same poor old farmers kill any animals they dont like on sight (meaning rodents, cats (some do dogs), snakes etc. they pollute our air, soil and water. I really do realize where you are coming from, but in Taiwan most farmers cant play the innocent poor working class card...they do, but they have little right in my books. I farm here, and live around farms. Plant crop damage is fairly limited with dogs/cats. far more from rodents! livestock gets affected sure, but only free range which is mostly done by smaller farms/families which could fence their land to at least help. cats will get in no matter, dogs are a little easier to keep out.


The long and short of it is that anyone who uses traps to harm another being, especially one so close (at heart) to our own species, is in the wrong, plain and simple. There are many alternatives to it, and they are just as lazy as pet owners that dont keep their pets contained.


on the topic of animal cruelty, anyoen with a strong stomach and not too sensitive might like to see "Earthlings" I am far too sensitive and got really upset watching parts of it so i stopped, it is very graphic and nto good for kids FYI.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby dulan drift » 15 Jan 2012, 10:00

Pingdong wrote:Nope, not at all, I am simply pointing out a fact and the reality of the life here. when you set out traps/poison you are intentionally trying to torture and/or kill otehr animals. When you let a dog roam, you are not intentionally trying to harm something, you are being lazy. I am not saying this is right or wrong, jsut simply pointing out the fact and its fairly obvious the difference.

Pingdong, you can bury your head in the sand all you like, but the fact remains that cats and dogs kill other animals - lots of them. Far more than traps. I gave the example of the cat that killed hundreds of animals over a year's period - it got caught in a trap once. Hundreds Vs 1. Which one is more? And those animals that are killed by cats and dogs die terrifying, horrible deaths. In fact, dogs and cats are about the only animals that kill just for the fun of it. Cats will play with their poor victim for hours before finally killing it. You cannot wash your hands of this slaughter by saying you are 'lazy'. I can't accept that word. If I don't wash my dishes - that's lazy. But it's not hurting anyone. But if i let my dog or cat roam free in a farming community, then that's straight out immoral. 'Inconsiderate assholes' would be another way of putting it.

But still, you're not even sure if this behaviour is 'right or wrong'.

Why are you always blaming the victim and trying to defend the indefensible? I would love to see your reaction if there were large packs of pitbull terriers roaming the countryside and nightly tearing people's pet dogs and cats to pieces. Would you be defending the pitbull owners as just 'lazy' and say well, it's not really 'right or wrong', and blame the victims if they took defensive measures. Or would you go directly to the pitbull owners, who are fully aware of what's happening, even proud in some instances, and tell them to bloody well obey the law and control their dogs because what they are doing is morally repugnant?
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Mucha Man » 15 Jan 2012, 10:20

I completely agree with Dulan here. Letting your dog and cat run around free in a wild area where you know they are causing damage is assholish behavior.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby TheGingerMan » 15 Jan 2012, 10:46

dulan drift wrote: In fact, dogs and cats are about the only animals that kill just for the fun of it. Cats will play with their poor victim for hours before finally killing it.


Not fact at all. To name but one, ever seen footage of killer whales playing tennis with seals? Or how about eagles and owls, or even elephants?

It's not so simple as saying that a dog or cat must be tied up and constrained. Can one teach them not to roam and kill? Surely such goes against all the laws of nature, which many of the limp-wristed would attempt to deny.
Obviously one can take some measures to constrain the killing instinct of our pets, but to deny it outright? Sheer folly to my mind.
Rather, the inevitable onus must lie on the shepherd to protect their flock from predators. This would seem such an obvious tactic used by generations of farmers that it would hardly warrant comment. While a steel trap might seem extreme, what is the alternate? Robot killer sensors, or having to lock up 24/7 one's domesticated killing mammal?
Might as well go for a soda, and let nature be natural.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby dulan drift » 16 Jan 2012, 11:15

TheGingerMan wrote:
dulan drift wrote: In fact, dogs and cats are about the only animals that kill just for the fun of it. Cats will play with their poor victim for hours before finally killing it.


Not fact at all. To name but one, ever seen footage of killer whales playing tennis with seals? Or how about eagles and owls, or even elephants?


'About the only', is different from ' the only'. It suggests that there might be a few more kinds of animals that kill 'just for the fun of it', and yeah, I've seen that killer whale doco and that would be another one - though i daresay they would still eat the prey afterwards (unlike domestic dogs and cats which will kill without necessarily eating the victim - hence 'just for the fun of it'). I am sure there would be a couple more - though not raptors - they only kill to eat - and it's a relatively quick death in most cases - they rap their talons around the prey and squeeze it death. To be honest, I don't know about elephants - but i will take your word for it. Not sure how many animals there are on earth, but i stand by my statement that very, very few kill just for the fun of it.

TheGingerMan wrote:It's not so simple as saying that a dog or cat must be tied up and constrained. Can one teach them not to roam and kill? Surely such goes against all the laws of nature, which many of the limp-wristed would attempt to deny.
Obviously one can take some measures to constrain the killing instinct of our pets, but to deny it outright? Sheer folly to my mind.
Rather, the inevitable onus must lie on the shepherd to protect their flock from predators. This would seem such an obvious tactic used by generations of farmers that it would hardly warrant comment.
Might as well go for a soda, and let nature be natural.


'Let nature be nature.' With that statement you've actually hit the nail right on the head. But I doubt you know why. The problem lies in our different definitions of 'nature'?

Although it's quite correct to say everything is natural - even pollution and rampant development - if it happens on earth then it's natural - for the purposes of this discussion I am using it in terms of the ‘natural state of an eco-system’. For example, in Australia, kangaroos are native animals, and therefore part of the natural eco-system. Rabbits, foxes, European carp on the other hand are introduced species (not natural within that eco-system) that have a negative impact on populations of native animals. As such, they upset the balance of nature.

So, for me, the point that you have made, 'let nature be nature' is an actual key to this whole discussion.
Dogs and domestic cats are not native animals in Taiwan.
Due to a lack of regulation, their populations (especially dogs) have been allowed to run out of control to the point where they are roaming freely around the countryside either singularly or in packs.
Given that both species are highly intelligent and skilled hunters, that creates a serious imbalance in nature.

In order to 'let nature be nature', we need to stop killing it all the time. Which is exactly what uncontrolled dogs and cats do in Taiwan. Some people might be surprised, but Taiwan does actually have a decent array of native animals - I would like to see the native species that haven't already been driven to extinction get a bit of protection. Obviously, there are other major factors involved besides domestic dogs and cats, loss of habitat being the main one, but dogs and cats are still a significant factor.

Not to say that dogs and cats are not wonderful animals - they are - but when unrestrained they become an invasive species that has a significant negative impact on the natural eco-system. When they are allowed to run out of control and freely breed on the streets like they are in Taiwan - then the problem becomes dramatically amplified. I don’t know what it’s like in your countries of origin, but in Australia, there are virtually no deliberately unrestrained dogs. Fences (used by ‘generations of farmers’) consist of wooden posts and a few strands of wire – enough to keep their sheep in. A neighbour who lets his dog run amok at night to kill young lambs (and although very rare, it does occasionally happen) is considered one of the lowest pieces of shit in the community. If the dog is caught in the act by ‘the shepherd’, then he will ‘limp-wristedly’ as you put it, or not, take out his gun and shoot it dead. And the farmer who shoots it won’t be feeling bad about it or thinking it was ‘sheer folly’ on his part to ‘deny the killing instinct of our pets’ - he will be feeling mightily pissed off that he was forced to do it.

No more excuses. It's time. To take the very simple steps required to fix the problem - just like every other civilized country has. There's no shortage of models out there on how to do it.
I've raved on about the impact on native animals - and poultry farmers - but there are also the sad facts of what the current situation condemns a lot of dogs, in particular, to.
An unrestrained, un-neutered dog is going to mate to another unrestrained, un-neutered dog of the opposite sex and produce. (A bitch reaches sexual maturity from as young as 6 months! And she will go on heat twice a year for the rest of her life. After only 9 weeks gestation, litters are usually 4 to 6 puppies (here), which, interestingly if nothing else, can be from different fathers. Anyway, if you do the math, that's a lot of dogs on our streets.) All perfectly natural on one level. It’s also perfectly natural that many of these puppies will starve to death because the owner doesn’t mind having 3-4 dogs but he/she doesn’t want 10 suddenly. That’s a terrible fate. Some will survive on scraps, native animals and live stock, and join the owned free roamers (and breed of course) and of these some will 'naturally' be poisoned or trapped (by your limp-wristed farmers), catch canine diseases, or more likely get run over by cars and maimed or killed.

To allow or condone that situation is actually wanton cruelty to dogs. It should be recognized for what it is.

And how to stop it?

It’s absurdly easy. Registration.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Gman » 16 Jan 2012, 11:35

dulan drift wrote:'Let nature be nature.' With that statement you've actually hit the nail right on the head. But I doubt you know why. The problem lies in our different definitions of 'nature'?

Although it's quite correct to say everything is natural - even pollution and rampant development - if it happens on earth then it's natural - for the purposes of this discussion I am using it in terms of the ‘natural state of an eco-system’. For example, in Australia, kangaroos are native animals, and therefore part of the natural eco-system. Rabbits, foxes, European carp on the other hand are introduced species (not natural within that eco-system) that have a negative impact on populations of native animals. As such, they upset the balance of nature.

So, for me, the point that you have made, 'let nature be nature' is an actual key to this whole discussion.
Dogs and domestic cats are not native animals in Taiwan.
Due to a lack of regulation, their populations (especially dogs) have been allowed to run out of control to the point where they are roaming freely around the countryside either singularly or in packs.
Given that both species are highly intelligent and skilled hunters, that creates a serious imbalance in nature.


So where do humans fit in you definition of nature? I think the idea that there is any of the kind of 'balance of nature' you're talking about anywhere in Taiwan is pure ficton. But, is the topic of this discussion even really about feral dog populations but rather about the banning of a particullarly cruel and indiscriminate means of killing? Would live trapping for example, not be just as effective in achieving your ends?
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby dulan drift » 16 Jan 2012, 12:13

Gman wrote:So where do humans fit in you definition of nature? I think the idea that there is any of the kind of 'balance of nature' you're talking about anywhere in Taiwan is pure ficton. But, is the topic of this discussion even really about feral dog populations but rather about the banning of a particullarly cruel and indiscriminate means of killing? Would live trapping for example, not be just as effective in achieving your ends?


Obviously, as i mentioned, humans, through the clearing of habitat (and over hunting of the deer populations), have had a disastrous effect on the balance of nature in Taiwan. But I am an optimist, and so I don't throw my hands up and say that the idea that we could do something to redress this 'is pure fiction' - as you do - in fact it has been a common theme on this thread. In fact, there are things being done about it - the re-introduction of sika deer to the Kending National Park being one good example.

As for the topic being about steel traps and not free range dog farming - I was responding to several posters bleating about how terrible it was that 'stupid farmers' were setting traps to catch their dogs - as such I was just pointing out the simple truth that if regulations were tightened so that dog owners were faced with some kind of consequence for allowing their pets to maraud through farming communities, then the problem of them being caught in traps, or poisoned, or ending up as roadkill, or spreading disease, or rampantly breeding, or killing wildlife would virtually disappear overnight. Traps designed to catch dogs are set on a farmer's own private property - no one ever comes onto your private property to set traps and catch your dog. They set them on their own private property. If your dog is not roaming through farming communities onto other people's private property, then your dog has absolutely nothing to fear from traps.

Banning traps treats the symptom at best. Treating the cause - dog owners allowing their unregistered pets to run amok - is the only way that the problem will be solved. And the thing is, it's dead easy to do. There are no excuses.
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Re: Taiwan Bans Steel-Jaw Traps

Postby Gman » 16 Jan 2012, 13:21

dulan drift wrote:Obviously, as i mentioned, humans, through the clearing of habitat (and over hunting of the deer populations), have had a disastrous effect on the balance of nature in Taiwan. But I am an optimist, and so I don't throw my hands up and say that the idea that we could do something to redress this 'is pure fiction' - as you do - in fact it has been a common theme on this thread. In fact, there are things being done about it - the re-introduction of sika deer to the Kending National Park being one good example.


Even in your example, it's not a natural balance at all you are talking about a managed population. It's not giving up on anything, it's about recognizing reality and the reality is that Taiwan is a human environment and striving for a natural balance is an unreleastic ideal. Farming is a human activity and feral pets is a human introduced problem. Striving for a natural balance means that the farmer is every bit the obstruction to that end as the feral pets are.

As for the topic being about steel traps and not free range dog farming - I was responding to several posters bleating about how terrible it was that 'stupid farmers' were setting traps to catch their dogs - as such I was just pointing out the simple truth that if regulations were tightened so that dog owners were faced with some kind of consequence for allowing their pets to maraud through farming communities, then the problem of them being caught in traps, or poisoned, or ending up as roadkill, or spreading disease, or rampantly breeding, or killing wildlife would virtually disappear overnight.


You live in Taiwan right? Assuming you do, are you really certain the writting more tighter regulations for law enforcement to ignore is a practical solution? Now before you say that of course you mean the you want tighter enforcement, you need to remember where you live. There are scores of issues here where you could say more enforcement is needed, how far down the list do you think responsible pet ownership is?

Traps designed to catch dogs are set on a farmer's own private property - no one ever comes onto your private property to set traps and catch your dog. They set them on their own private property. If your dog is not roaming through farming communities onto other people's private property, then your dog has absolutely nothing to fear from traps.


See we agree here in principle but does that justify using a cruel and indiscrimitate method? Trespassing is illegal in Canada. However, we are not allowed to bury landmines on our front lawns.

Banning traps treats the symptom at best. Treating the cause - dog owners allowing their unregistered pets to run amok - is the only way that the problem will be solved. And the thing is, it's dead easy to do. There are no excuses.


Actually I don't see how banning traps treats the symptom at all. If the symptom is loose pets and the cause is irresponsible pet ownership then by definition it is the traps that are treating the symptom. Banning the traps mitigate treating the symptom.
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