Click here to go to our new forums at http://tw.forumosa.com
If you are a Forumosan Regular, when you log in for the FIRST TIME, you must RESET your password by using the Password Recovery system.

Usernames on the new forums must not contain any SPACES and must end with LETTER or a NUMBER; if yours does, you will be prompted to change your Username
Contact us at admin(at)forumosa(dot)com or @forumosa on Twitter or on our Facebook Page if you have any questions or problems logging back in

Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby Confuzius » 06 Apr 2012, 10:46

bigduke6 wrote:Confuzius, my point is that in Israel, a Jewish state, it is not against the law if you criticize Judaism. As far as I know, it is not against the law in the deep south to call Jesus a fag.
I also know that in Israel, those crazy ultra orthodox Jews will get prosecuted if they stone someone. Not sure when they last stoned someone other than John Cleese?
They usually revert to less lethal measures like spitting, which also results in prosecution.


Youre acting as though that makes either Judaism or xianity more civil or evolved than Judaism.

However, your point proves the exact opositte. it is BECAUSE the US and Israel are not theocracies or ran by clerics. Put the US govt in the hands of the evangelicals or put Israel in the hands of the ultra orthodox and thered be death penalties all around.

The SURROUNDING SOCIETIES which Judaism and Xianity find themselves have progressed more than the SURROUNDING SOCIETIES where Islam is the big fish (ie the middle east). The societies where Judaism and Xianity are more prevelant went through the enlightenment, embrace modernity-things that are AGAINST their religions.

So its not that Judaism and Xianity have actually evolved...its that the people in power in Jewish and Xian countries have....by abandoning Judaism and Xianity!

Once secularism gains a greater foothold in the middle east and the govt isnt run by the religious people, the same thing will happen.
"Knowledge alone is transitory, the outcrop subsequent to 'I desire all things'". - A. O. Spare
Confuzius
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 08:09



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby Tigerman » 06 Apr 2012, 12:11

Confuzius wrote:it is BECAUSE the US and Israel are not theocracies or ran by clerics. Put the US govt in the hands of the evangelicals or put Israel in the hands of the ultra orthodox and thered be death penalties all around.


Maybe, maybe not. In any event, the people in Israel and in "Christian" nations have not necessarily abandoned religion... rather, they have purposely established secular states that not only protect religious freedom, but, also protect people from religion. In some of the ME nations, Sharia is law or the goal.
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
Tigerman
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 17775
Joined: 17 Sep 2002, 12:09



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby bigduke6 » 06 Apr 2012, 12:29

Confuzius wrote:
bigduke6 wrote:Confuzius, my point is that in Israel, a Jewish state, it is not against the law if you criticize Judaism. As far as I know, it is not against the law in the deep south to call Jesus a fag.
I also know that in Israel, those crazy ultra orthodox Jews will get prosecuted if they stone someone. Not sure when they last stoned someone other than John Cleese?
They usually revert to less lethal measures like spitting, which also results in prosecution.


Youre acting as though that makes either Judaism or xianity more civil or evolved than Judaism.

However, your point proves the exact opositte. it is BECAUSE the US and Israel are not theocracies or ran by clerics. Put the US govt in the hands of the evangelicals or put Israel in the hands of the ultra orthodox and thered be death penalties all around.

The SURROUNDING SOCIETIES which Judaism and Xianity find themselves have progressed more than the SURROUNDING SOCIETIES where Islam is the big fish (ie the middle east). The societies where Judaism and Xianity are more prevelant went through the enlightenment, embrace modernity-things that are AGAINST their religions.

So its not that Judaism and Xianity have actually evolved...its that the people in power in Jewish and Xian countries have....by abandoning Judaism and Xianity!

Once secularism gains a greater foothold in the middle east and the govt isnt run by the religious people, the same thing will happen.


Christianity and Judaism are more evolved than Islam. They are definitely more civil.

People in power have not abandoned Judaism or Christianity. They are elected officials. See how far a presidential candidate will get if he says he is abandoning Christianity.

There are plenty of religious Jews and Christians. It is just that these religions are not stuck in the dark ages.

The very nature of Islam is what is preventing it from evolving.

All indications are that, for the most part the middle east is regressing to the dark ages. Secular revolutions always end up being hijacked by Islamists, from Iran to Egypt. Once in power they never let go. They would rather murder thousands of their own people then give up power. Even Turkey is regressing.
I saw on the news that the brotherhood of peace is pushing for Sharia law in Egypt. Lovely.
Jesus Quintana: Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."
The Dude: Jesus.
Jesus Quintana: You said it, man. Nobody
fucks with the Jesus.

Mr.Lahey: The shitabyss!
Randy: Mr. Lahey, not another night of the shitabyss, please?!
Mr.Lahey: Ah, fuck it.

If you talk to god, you're religious. If god talks to you, you're psychotic.
Gregory House

I got me a dog and named her Mybitchniggaeater.
2Pac
User avatar
bigduke6
Wild Chicken Bus Driver (yě jī chē sī jī)
Wild Chicken Bus Driver (yě jī chē sī jī)
 
Posts: 1938
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 19 May 2011, 11:58
Location: Kaohsiung



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby Fortigurn » 11 Apr 2012, 12:12

Tigerman wrote:
Confuzius wrote:it is BECAUSE the US and Israel are not theocracies or ran by clerics. Put the US govt in the hands of the evangelicals or put Israel in the hands of the ultra orthodox and thered be death penalties all around.


Maybe, maybe not. In any event, the people in Israel and in "Christian" nations have not necessarily abandoned religion... rather, they have purposely established secular states that not only protect religious freedom, but, also protect people from religion.


And let's not forget these actions were taken by religious people. In the West, rights such as freedom of and from religion, separation of church and state, and a host of other liberties we take for granted, were established by profoundly religious people, predominantly Christian. Atheist writer Jacques Berlinerblau makes a good point.

While we are on the topic, let it be noted that it was not a secular militia that liberated the author of The Satanic Verses. A telethon hosted by a tuxedoed atheist did not precipitate his eventual release. There was no walkathon in which 1 million non-believers raised funds for his security detail by traipsing down Fifth Avenue holding placards, wearing fanny packs, and drinking lots of bottled water. Rather, it was the largesse of various Western democracies, Anglican Britain in particular, that saw him through the whole nasty episode. These are not Godless states. They consist of a religiously moderate majority that has made its peace with secularism. It is because these moderates tolerate secularism (and are to varying degrees secularized themselves) that nonbelievers are able to persevere and prosper. The mainstream religions of the Occident are the pontoons of secularism. Only by virtue of their tacit consent can this minority remain buoyant in the arts, letters, mass media, and so on.3


Village atheists – who tend to associate all religion with religious extremism – need to ask themselves what it means to share so many similarities with those who are supposed to be their antithesis.
User avatar
Fortigurn
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
 
Posts: 4854
Joined: 16 Jan 2004, 17:59
Location: Wanfang



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby sulavaca » 11 Apr 2012, 13:40

tomthorne wrote:In the distant past Christianity used to be backward and repressive. Therefore, it's OK for Islam to be like that now. Errrr, OK.


Well you can't expect everyone to be up to speed on science. There are quite a few members of this board who still believe that there's an invisible, magic man in the sky, even when offered a much more logical alternative.
Visit actaiwan.org for Car Rentals, servicing, repairs, Used Car Purchasing, Inspections, Articles and Useful Information on Taiwan Motoring.
Check out A.C. on Facebook
User avatar
sulavaca
Has-been Pop Star (guòshí míngxīng)
Has-been Pop Star (guòshí míngxīng)
 
Posts: 5087
Joined: 09 Jul 2006, 10:48
Location: Taipei



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby E04teacherlin » 11 Apr 2012, 15:02

sulavaca wrote:
tomthorne wrote:In the distant past Christianity used to be backward and repressive. Therefore, it's OK for Islam to be like that now. Errrr, OK.


Well you can't expect everyone to be up to speed on science. There are quite a few members of this board who still believe that there's an invisible, magic man in the sky, even when offered a much more logical alternative.

Well, at least heaven is one place you can travel to without a passport, unless you have other logical alternatives like maybe China.
E04teacherlin
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 622
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 01:54



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby finley » 11 Apr 2012, 15:12

sulavaca wrote:
tomthorne wrote:In the distant past Christianity used to be backward and repressive. Therefore, it's OK for Islam to be like that now. Errrr, OK.


Well you can't expect everyone to be up to speed on science. There are quite a few members of this board who still believe that there's an invisible, magic man in the sky, even when offered a much more logical alternative.


The transformation of Christianity from a tool of political control (back) into an actual religion had nothing to do with scientific progress. It was more a result of social emancipation, democratic freedoms, and separation of church and state, which happened a long time before (for example) the theory of natural selection. In the UK, the defining event was the revolution of 1688. Islamic countries (and, for that matter, "Christian" countries which never escaped from under the thumb of the Church) remained backward in terms of social evolution.

However, your point proves the exact opositte. it is BECAUSE the US and Israel are not theocracies or ran by clerics. Put the US govt in the hands of the evangelicals or put Israel in the hands of the ultra orthodox and thered be death penalties all around.

I'd agree with that.
"Global warming is happening and we KNOW that man is 100 percent responsible!!!"
- Fred Smith
User avatar
finley
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
 
Posts: 7145
Joined: 20 Jan 2011, 23:34



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby Confuzius » 11 Apr 2012, 16:32

Fortigurn wrote:
Tigerman wrote:
Confuzius wrote:it is BECAUSE the US and Israel are not theocracies or ran by clerics. Put the US govt in the hands of the evangelicals or put Israel in the hands of the ultra orthodox and thered be death penalties all around.


Maybe, maybe not. In any event, the people in Israel and in "Christian" nations have not necessarily abandoned religion... rather, they have purposely established secular states that not only protect religious freedom, but, also protect people from religion.


And let's not forget these actions were taken by religious people. In the West, rights such as freedom of and from religion, separation of church and state, and a host of other liberties we take for granted, were established by profoundly religious people, predominantly Christian. Atheist writer Jacques Berlinerblau makes a good point.


You mean like Thomas Jefferson, the monist? (he thought the trinity was BS...look see: http://www.brunswickcounty.com/Thomas_Jefferson_and_the_Doctrine_of_the_Trinity-a-1150.html )

Or Benjamin Franklin the deist?

The personal religious convictions of the majority of the founding fathers, those who wrote the constitution and the bill of rights, were VERY far from the Christianity of their day.

So again...these wonderful freedoms and advances in society run CONTRARY to Christianity. The enlightenment put a muzzle on the vicious beast of Christian intolerance. These wonderful freedoms go against the very grain of the Christian religion (thank god for heretics!)
"Knowledge alone is transitory, the outcrop subsequent to 'I desire all things'". - A. O. Spare
Confuzius
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 08:09



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby finley » 11 Apr 2012, 17:03

The enlightenment put a muzzle on the vicious beast of Christian intolerance. These wonderful freedoms go against the very grain of the Christian religion (thank god for heretics!)

Where on earth do you get that idea? Individual freedom and personal responsibility is one of the core beliefs of Christianity (in fact, it's virtually unique in that respect). The historical "intolerance" you're speaking of was common-or-garden political repression. Nothing to do with religion of any stripe.
"Global warming is happening and we KNOW that man is 100 percent responsible!!!"
- Fred Smith
User avatar
finley
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
 
Posts: 7145
Joined: 20 Jan 2011, 23:34



Re: Christian teen jailed for insulting Islam

Postby Confuzius » 11 Apr 2012, 17:23

finley wrote:
The enlightenment put a muzzle on the vicious beast of Christian intolerance. These wonderful freedoms go against the very grain of the Christian religion (thank god for heretics!)

Where on earth do you get that idea? Individual freedom and personal responsibility is one of the core beliefs of Christianity (in fact, it's virtually unique in that respect).


You actually convoluted two points into 1 (I made them different colors above). Lets look at each.
Individual freedom
OK, lets look (at just a few) examples of how Christianity does NOT support individual freedom.

Matthew:
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Jesus tells his disciples to keep away from the Gentiles and Samaritans, and go only to the Israelites. 10:5-6 (clearly the Christians changed this when they needed gentile converts)

AND THE BEST!!!!!!: "He that is not with me is against me." 12:30 (REAL TOLERANT EH?) also in Luke 11:23

Mark:
Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11 (also Matthew 10:14-15 in case you want another reference)

Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16

Luke
In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27 (FREEDOM?)

Ok, onto personal responsibility

Just look at the MANY verses condemning the Jews (not just the Jews in the days of Jesus, but the Jews forever and ever) for killing Jesus. (do I need to quote them? theyre easy to find). That is NOT personal responsibility as you said, as the descendants of those that crucified Jesus did nothing, only those that lived in Jesus' day.

finley wrote: The historical "intolerance" you're speaking of was common-or-garden political repression. Nothing to do with religion of any stripe.


Oh geez golly, them modern, left wing Christian apologists who want to revision their religion in line with contemporary, modern, progressive values sure do like to say that. But just read the New Testament (I just provided a tiny amount of intolerant verses). Those who think Christianity promotes tolerance, acceptance, Individual freedom and personal responsibility need to go read their "good" book.
"Knowledge alone is transitory, the outcrop subsequent to 'I desire all things'". - A. O. Spare
Confuzius
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 08:09



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
PreviousNext




Return to Religion & Spirituality



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 0 guests