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Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby hansioux » 23 Aug 2013, 09:56

Confuzius wrote:
hansioux wrote:there's Buddhism, and there's folk religion which would often put Buddha, Guan-gong, and the Jade Emperor together in a same temple.


For thousands of years, you could find this exact thing in hardcore Buddhist and Daoist temples too.


I doubt it. During much of the Tang and Song dynasty, Taoism and Buddhism are fiercely against each other. It is not until the latter half of Song dynasty when Buddhism was clearly winning out that Taoist began to adapt. The phenomenon didn't occur until Yuan or Ming, which is at most a couple hundred of years ago. Also, you will not find this in a hardcore Buddhist temple, unless we have a different definition of hardcore Buddhist temples.
Don't confuse me with your reasonableness.
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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby Mucha Man » 23 Aug 2013, 13:14

Do you either of you know a good book to recommend on the history of Buddhism and/or Taoism in China? I know material for Taiwan so don't need that.

Preferably something that is available on Kindle though I know that is a long shot for a good history.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby Confuzius » 23 Aug 2013, 16:30

hansioux wrote:
Confuzius wrote:
hansioux wrote:there's Buddhism, and there's folk religion which would often put Buddha, Guan-gong, and the Jade Emperor together in a same temple.


For thousands of years, you could find this exact thing in hardcore Buddhist and Daoist temples too.


I doubt it. During much of the Tang and Song dynasty, Taoism and Buddhism are fiercely against each other. It is not until the latter half of Song dynasty when Buddhism was clearly winning out that Taoist began to adapt.


Daoism adapted to Buddhism from the get go. Look at the 靈寳 scriptures. Heck, look at the 三洞 of the Daoist canon modeled after the Tripitaka. Daoism really became an organized religion only because of the influence of Buddhism.

Then, during the Tang and Song, there was a huge overlap of influence between Esoteric Buddhism and Daoism. They borrowed each other's deities, sometimes renaming them, sometimes not.

The phenomenon didn't occur until Yuan or Ming, which is at most a couple hundred of years ago.


If the particular phenomenon you are referring to are finding deities of the other religion enshrined in the temples of the other, this is simply absolutely false and I have no idea where you would get such an impression. If you are referring to a different phenomenon, then I have no idea what you are talking about and must ask for clarification.

Also, you will not find this in a hardcore Buddhist temple, unless we have a different definition of hardcore Buddhist temples.


Buddhist temples in Taiwan whose lineage originated in Yongquan temple on the mainland. Thats about as hardcore Buddhist as you can get.

The modern, flashy Buddhist monasteries, like Foguangshan do not do this though.
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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby Confuzius » 23 Aug 2013, 16:32

Mucha Man wrote:Do you either of you know a good book to recommend on the history of Buddhism and/or Taoism in China? I know material for Taiwan so don't need that.

Preferably something that is available on Kindle though I know that is a long shot for a good history.


No Kindle, but pdf if you are interested. If so, send me a PM.
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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby hansioux » 23 Aug 2013, 17:29

Confuzius wrote:
Daoism adapted to Buddhism from the get go. Look at the 靈寳 scriptures. Heck, look at the 三洞 of the Daoist canon modeled after the Tripitaka. Daoism really became an organized religion only because of the influence of Buddhism.

Then, during the Tang and Song, there was a huge overlap of influence between Esoteric Buddhism and Daoism. They borrowed each other's deities, sometimes renaming them, sometimes not.


early Buddhism translations would barrow words from Taoism and Confucian terminologies. Much like when the bible was translated in to Chinese, Taoism words such as 上帝 were borrowed. When the Nestorian translated their bible into Chinese during Tang, the text reads like a Buddhist suttra for people who aren't familiar with either.

Taoism did adapt many things from Buddhism, it even had to create a central spiritual theme due to the challenges of Buddhism. But it doesn't mean Taoists from Tang and Song put Amitabha Buddha in their Taoist temples.

Confuzius wrote:If the particular phenomenon you are referring to are finding deities of the other religion enshrined in the temples of the other, this is simply absolutely false and I have no idea where you would get such an impression. If you are referring to a different phenomenon, then I have no idea what you are talking about and must ask for clarification.


I maybe wrong, but I would like to see evidence of this. Early religious leaders are quiet aware of the differences and were more into spreading the word and than placating to the people. I doubt they would spend all that trouble traveling between China and India, then spend decades translating Buddhism suttras with hundreds of people and then place a frigging jade emperor in their Buddhist temple.

Confuzius wrote:Buddhist temples in Taiwan whose lineage originated in Yongquan temple on the mainland. Thats about as hardcore Buddhist as you can get.

The modern, flashy Buddhist monasteries, like Foguangshan do not do this though.


I think Yongquan temple stopped being hardcore Buddhist temple since the Ming dynasty.
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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby Mucha Man » 23 Aug 2013, 20:36

edit
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby Confuzius » 23 Aug 2013, 20:55

Id take your email offa here cus of spambots, google searches forumosa.

But ill sendya a few tonight.
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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby Mucha Man » 23 Aug 2013, 21:00

Confuzius wrote:Id take your email offa here cus of spambots, google searches forumosa.

But ill sendya a few tonight.


That was supposed to be a pm. Hit wrong button. Thanks for the warning.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

https://www.facebook.com/taiwantemples
Mucha Man
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Posts: 19980
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Location: Mucha, of course



Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby Confuzius » 23 Aug 2013, 22:49

hansioux wrote:
Taoism did adapt many things from Buddhism, it even had to create a central spiritual theme due to the challenges of Buddhism. But it doesn't mean Taoists from Tang and Song put Amitabha Buddha in their Taoist temples.


Maybe not Amithabda, but they sure put Shakyamuni there! Hell, according to some medieval scriptures, Shakyamuni was a reincarnation of Laozi, and thus worthy of reverence. Guanyin, OF COURSE got put into Daoist temples as well.

I maybe wrong, but I would like to see evidence of this. Early religious leaders are quiet aware of the differences and were more into spreading the word and than placating to the people. I doubt they would spend all that trouble traveling between China and India, then spend decades translating Buddhism suttras with hundreds of people and then place a frigging jade emperor in their Buddhist temple.


Read Mollier's "Buddhism and Daoism Face to Face" (spelling? Taoism maybe).

I think Yongquan temple stopped being hardcore Buddhist temple since the Ming dynasty.


You clearly know more about Buddhism than the average laowai :P

However, until the early 20th century, the VAST majority of all Taiwanese Buddhist monks received ordination at Yongquan temple. Even for much of the Japanese period. (your claim would make 90% of orthodox, non-folkishy Buddhists in Taiwan....not hardcore Buddhist and we both know that is simply not the case)

Please do tell me:
1. Where you got this idea
2. What details gave you this impression
3. Anywhere I can refer to
(unlike my usual snarky posts, I am not being an ass and am quite interested)
:bow:
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Re: Is wikipedia's religion in taiwan article accurate?

Postby hansioux » 24 Aug 2013, 08:57

Confuzius wrote:Please do tell me:
1. Where you got this idea
2. What details gave you this impression
3. Anywhere I can refer to
(unlike my usual snarky posts, I am not being an ass and am quite interested)
:bow:


Claiming that Buddha is reincarnation of Laozi sounds like something taken right out of Hindu Brahman's book. Though reincarnation is already an adopted idea, and in no way "orthodox" Taoism. I have to say, the adapted Taoist and folk religion made the right choice going down this route, I wonder how they came to the same approach as the Hindus in India... But in a way there's a trend to include more deities in most folk religion. [your;=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Dai]There are those that included Jesus, and even Sun Yat-sen[/url].

I get the impression that the"hardcore Buddhism" refers to 正信佛教, which is promoted by Mentor Yin Shun (印順導師), who was a student of Taixu (太虛) back in China.

I think before Ming dynasty, most of the folk religion remained in homes. People who don't really understand what the two religions are about, who just want to worship for peace and prosperity would put deities together in their homes. By Ming dynasty, Luo Yin (羅因) wrote a book named Tapas Enlightenment Scrolls (苦功悟道卷) which is a mix of all three, and started his own pseudo Taoism that pretty much put the new religion on the map. A variation of this, Zhai Jiao (齋教), is pretty much the prototype of folk religion in Taiwan.

In Taiwan it gets worse, because even though most early temples claims to have originate from Yuan Quan Temple, very little actual Buddhism is going on. Monks were busy placating to the people, and became professional funeral and prayer bands. I can't recall exactly where I've read it, but some of the situation is mentioned by the Taiwan Encyclopedia.

http://taiwanpedia.culture.tw/web/content?ID=367

但是佛教的義理、修持仍乏人問津,佛寺與民間神廟都充斥著祈福消災的信仰氛圍,甚至神佛不分、僧俗共處寺廟中


By the end of Qing dynasty most temples have been compromised by folk religion, destroyed by the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, or fell into disrepair after years of unrest. There was a revival of Buddhism. By that I mean monks actually started to do research, comparison, and reexamine the condition of Chinese Buddhism. Out of which came the Taixu and Yin Shun teachings. Now, I am not saying that is the only Hardcore Buddhism out there, any Buddhist temple that devotes itself to the actual studying and practicing of the teaching of the Buddha would be a hardcore Buddhist temple. Safe to say, any Buddhist temple that is about 正信佛教 or 原始佛教 will not have a Jade Emperor or Mazu in their temple.
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