Click here to go to our new forums at http://tw.forumosa.com
If you are a Forumosan Regular, when you log in for the FIRST TIME, you must RESET your password by using the Password Recovery system.

Usernames on the new forums must not contain any SPACES and must end with LETTER or a NUMBER; if yours does, you will be prompted to change your Username
Contact us at admin(at)forumosa(dot)com or @forumosa on Twitter or on our Facebook Page if you have any questions or problems logging back in

Is Islam a religion of peace?

Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby Zla'od » 23 Dec 2015, 16:30

OrangeOrganics, I hope that I would never be so foolish as to claim that all religions "are basically the same." Even the same religion (so called) will inevitably differ from group to group, or believer to believer.

You're right that the sutras don't encourage killing unbelievers--rather the opposite. But Protestants to the contrary notwithstanding, religions cannot be reduced to their fundamental texts (although there do exist "Qur'an Only" Muslims--who tend to be liberals, by the way). In the Buddhist countries that I mentioned, Buddhism takes on a certain political role, and particular monks (or lay patrons) regularly arise to direct popular wrath against local Hindus (in Sri Lanka) or Muslims (in Burma and southern Thailand). In terms of texts, there is always that old standby of the Trimondis, the Kalachakratantra, although I haven't noticed Buddhists rallying around its bellicose passages recently.

You object to "literally" following the scriptures, so it seems that you recognize the tendency of tradition to soften problematic passages. This certainly occurs within Islam.

Andrew, you point to what seems to be the ransom / satisfaction theory of soteriology as the essence of Christianity. Another Christian might point to the Nicene Creed, or the Greatest Commandment, or any of a hundred other things--some of which you would probably agree with, some of them not.
“What part of a woman is the yet, anyway? I heard there was a fight here in Tulsa, and a woman was shot in the fracas. The doc said the bullet is in her yet. And how did the bullet get in her yet, when she was shot in the fracas?"
Zla'od
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1702
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby OrangeOrganics » 23 Dec 2015, 16:51

Zla'od wrote:OrangeOrganics, I hope that I would never be so foolish as to claim that all religions "are basically the same." Even the same religion (so called) will inevitably differ from group to group, or believer to believer.

You're right that the sutras don't encourage killing unbelievers--rather the opposite. But Protestants to the contrary notwithstanding, religions cannot be reduced to their fundamental texts (although there do exist "Qur'an Only" Muslims--who tend to be liberals, by the way). In the Buddhist countries that I mentioned, Buddhism takes on a certain political role, and particular monks (or lay patrons) regularly arise to direct popular wrath against local Hindus (in Sri Lanka) or Muslims (in Burma and southern Thailand). In terms of texts, there is always that old standby of the Trimondis, the Kalachakratantra, although I haven't noticed Buddhists rallying around its bellicose passages recently.


Where is your evidence for this?

The central tenant of Islam is that the Quran is the direct word of God and everything else Bid‘ah or innovation. Literalism is the current paradigm in most of the Islamic world and the Saudis are doing their best to stamp out groups who are not strict adherents like the Sufis.
OrangeOrganics
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 688
Joined: 12 May 2013, 09:07
In Taiwan since: 20 Feb 2010



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby Zla'od » 23 Dec 2015, 22:23

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism

So you've noticed that there are other forms of Islam with different tenets, such as the Sufis you mention...?
“What part of a woman is the yet, anyway? I heard there was a fight here in Tulsa, and a woman was shot in the fracas. The doc said the bullet is in her yet. And how did the bullet get in her yet, when she was shot in the fracas?"
Zla'od
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1702
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby OrangeOrganics » 23 Dec 2015, 23:00

Zla'od wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism

So you've noticed that there are other forms of Islam with different tenets, such as the Sufis you mention...?

Yes, Islam has taken different forms. Mainstream Sunni Islam and then Salafism/ Wahabbism are under the paradigm of liberalism and have been for centuries. What is your point?
OrangeOrganics
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 688
Joined: 12 May 2013, 09:07
In Taiwan since: 20 Feb 2010



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby Zla'od » 23 Dec 2015, 23:41

So you're comfortable with the suggestion that there are both liberal and conservative Muslims...? And both liberal and conservative ways to interpret the Qur'an...? In that case the problem would not be with Islam per se, but only with certain forms of it.
“What part of a woman is the yet, anyway? I heard there was a fight here in Tulsa, and a woman was shot in the fracas. The doc said the bullet is in her yet. And how did the bullet get in her yet, when she was shot in the fracas?"
Zla'od
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1702
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby OrangeOrganics » 23 Dec 2015, 23:54

Zla'od wrote:So you're comfortable with the suggestion that there are both liberal and conservative Muslims...? And both liberal and conservative ways to interpret the Qur'an...? In that case the problem would not be with Islam per se, but only with certain forms of it.

Not really. Im talking about mainstream Islam.

Look I get what you are trying to do, you are trying to conflate Christianity with Islam and they are different in form and content. What do these words liberal and conservative mean?

Please
OrangeOrganics
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 688
Joined: 12 May 2013, 09:07
In Taiwan since: 20 Feb 2010



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby Zla'od » 24 Dec 2015, 06:39

Oh, it's worse than that. Not only are Christianity and Islam different from each other, but there is so much diversity within each, that it becomes hard to generalize.

What form of Islam would you consider "mainstream"? Taipei has two mosques--would you accept either of them as representative of the Muslim mainstream? The USA must have thousands--which group gets to define the religion?

You're right that "liberal" and "conservative" can be difficult to define. Would you accept Alevism as a liberal form of Islam? (Look it up if you have to.)
“What part of a woman is the yet, anyway? I heard there was a fight here in Tulsa, and a woman was shot in the fracas. The doc said the bullet is in her yet. And how did the bullet get in her yet, when she was shot in the fracas?"
Zla'od
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1702
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby OrangeOrganics » 24 Dec 2015, 07:34

Zla'od wrote:Oh, it's worse than that. Not only are Christianity and Islam different from each other, but there is so much diversity within each, that it becomes hard to generalize.

What form of Islam would you consider "mainstream"? Taipei has two mosques--would you accept either of them as representative of the Muslim mainstream? The USA must have thousands--which group gets to define the religion?

You're right that "liberal" and "conservative" can be difficult to define. Would you accept Alevism as a liberal form of Islam? (Look it up if you have to.)




Becoming tedious. Im talking about mainstream Sunni Islam. Go and find some pew polls, if you want to get an idea of what the majority of Muslims believe.
OrangeOrganics
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 688
Joined: 12 May 2013, 09:07
In Taiwan since: 20 Feb 2010



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby Zla'od » 24 Dec 2015, 09:52

“What part of a woman is the yet, anyway? I heard there was a fight here in Tulsa, and a woman was shot in the fracas. The doc said the bullet is in her yet. And how did the bullet get in her yet, when she was shot in the fracas?"
Zla'od
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1702
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36



Re: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Postby OrangeOrganics » 24 Dec 2015, 13:21

OrangeOrganics
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 688
Joined: 12 May 2013, 09:07
In Taiwan since: 20 Feb 2010



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
PreviousNext




Return to Religion & Spirituality



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 0 guests